Oolite Bulletins

Greetings, commanders.

If you have ever, in any Elite version, used the right/left roll and/or dive/climb pitch gauges for anything, then please explain to me what you used it for.

I would like to know what purpose, if any, they possibly serve.

Admittedly, I have not played much, but from what little I've done, and from what I've seen and read, I can't figure out why they are there.

Thanks.

Kind regards
user

Decoration. But thanks for reminding me that I had an idea for a fancier HUD dial earlier today. <<-- Note to self.

Yeah, back then they (whom?) were presumably trying to come up with anything to make an instrument panel looking display on my computer screen.

If you don't remember 8-bit computers, you just wouldn't understand.

Cosmetics, then. Thought so. Thanks, Wildeblood.

Just guessing....
If I were to create such a simulation I'd need something to verify ship movement vs user input. It's not always in sync, especially when using digital input.

Remember the days when joysticks were digital or just keyboard keys. Dampening was introduced that allows users to use pulse width modulation for finer control.

During gameplay this gauge is unused, so my second guess is that it simply lives through all releases and was never questioned. Today it might even be there for easy recognition.

Edit:
The gauge's purpose must have been challenged. If you switch to e.g. the Vimana HUD it is not shown.

hiran wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 6:58 am

The gauge's purpose must have been challenged. If you switch to e.g. the Vimana HUD it is not shown.

Not quite true. It is not flagged up as such, but if you investigate you will find that the gauges have been incorporated into the space compass (the yellow dot). This was first included back c.2011 (or earlier) - you find them in some of the Coluber HUDs for example.


Edited to add - Gunney Plym included an "incorporated compass" in his 2008 G-Hud OXP.

But Killer Wolf's Steampunk HUD seems not to have any roll/pitch/yaw display at all.

They are somewhat redundant given that both Oolite and Elite are Visual Flight Simulators. However, if one also had ideas of doing something along the lines of an Instrument Flight Simulator then their reason for being can be justified.

This brings up another interesting topic for discussion. When looking out at any of the four cockpit directions are we looking out of windows at the real world or are they projections onto a view screen by a camera system? If memory serves there are several H.U.D.'s that feature damage to such a camera system and view screen combo. At that point the Pitch and Roll Gauges together with the Space Compass become the only means one has of proper orientation. This also explains why several H.U.D.'s overlay the Pitch and Roll Gauges on the Space Compass.

Just some extra food for thought during our usual summer posting drought.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:40 am

hiran wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 6:58 am

The gauge's purpose must have been challenged. If you switch to e.g. the Vimana HUD it is not shown.

Not quite true. It is not flagged up as such, but if you investigate you will find that the gauges have been incorporated into the space compass (the yellow dot). This was first included back c.2011 (or earlier) - you find them in some of the Coluber HUDs for example.


Edited to add - Gunney Plym included an "incorporated compass" in his 2008 G-Hud OXP.

But Killer Wolf's Steampunk HUD seems not to have any roll/pitch/yaw display at all.

Oh snap. But then yes, the existence was challenged.
Thanks for the correction.

Nite Owl wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 2:22 pm

This brings up another interesting topic for discussion. When looking out at any of the four cockpit directions are we looking out of windows at the real world or are they projections onto a view screen by a camera system? If memory serves there are several H.U.D.'s that feature damage to such a camera system and view screen combo. At that point the Pitch and Roll Gauges together with the Space Compass become the only means one has of proper orientation. This also explains why several H.U.D.'s overlay the Pitch and Roll Gauges on the Space Compass.

Just some extra food for thought during our usual summer posting drought.

I do not believe these controls are useful.
As I know what input I give to the ship showing that detail is no new information. I'd need a gauge to show me what is happening instead. And that seems to always be in sync with the aristoteles drive or how you call it.

So as soon as the ship can move in another direction than it is pointing to, or it can turn another direction than I am steering I'd need gauges.

Nite Owl wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 2:22 pm

This brings up another interesting topic for discussion. When looking out at any of the four cockpit directions are we looking out of windows at the real world or are they projections onto a view screen by a camera system? If memory serves there are several H.U.D.'s that feature damage to such a camera system and view screen combo. At that point the Pitch and Roll Gauges together with the Space Compass become the only means one has of proper orientation. This also explains why several H.U.D.'s overlay the Pitch and Roll Gauges on the Space Compass.

Just some extra food for thought during our usual summer posting drought.

This is an old chestnut. The majority have argued that they are viewscreens, but there are some old ship models which have “real” windows on the outside - and one or two attempts to put pilots behind them!

Edited to add: Ramon's DWCobra (2006)

Nite Owl wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 2:22 pm

This brings up another interesting topic for discussion. When looking out at any of the four cockpit directions are we looking out of windows at the real world or are they projections onto a view screen by a camera system? If memory serves there are several H.U.D.'s that feature damage to such a camera system and view screen combo. At that point the Pitch and Roll Gauges together with the Space Compass become the only means one has of proper orientation. This also explains why several H.U.D.'s overlay the Pitch and Roll Gauges on the Space Compass.

Personally, I like the idea of a Synthetic Vision System (SVS) with hull-mounted cameras relaying visual information to a view screen inside the cockpit, because I've heard that Windows weaken the structure of the vessel.

However, Ian Bell, in his Elite Players' Guide > HOW TO PLAY ELITE > SPACE FLIGHT, par. 1 states: "You are now heading towards the planet Lave, looking out of the forward view from the cabin of your space ship." (http://www.elitehomepage.org/playguide.htm#A5) This phraseology seems to imply a window of some kind. (I also like how you are apparently supposed to pilot your Space ship from the "cabin", i.e. crew/living quarters downstairs, in stead of from the cockpit. )

*

I am, however, not yet convinced of the usefulness of the roll and pitch gauges. Maybe my experience of instrument flight, when the SVS is damaged, is still too limited, but I can't imagine how I would be able to pilot a Cobra Mk III in Space, under combat conditions, hoping to dock some time soon again, just by instruments alone. If my SVS were damaged to such an extent, I would probably just eject in an escape pod.

Here's what I imagine... So, combat has damaged the front-mounted external camera and its auxiliary backup camera(s), and I can see squat on the main-view monitor flying forward. How did things ever get to be so bad in the first place? Oh, yeah... now I remember: I overestimated my supposedly "Competent" combat rank, and underestimated the pirates in the Riedquat system. ...And there are still a whole pack of them out there. I mean, the laser hits just keep on raining down, shields are gone long time already, and I'm on the last energy bank... Whatcha gonna do? ESC!

OK... Best-case scenario... Let's say I actually survive such an encounter, (1) having managed to dispatch the last pirate (with a missile?) just as the SVS went down, and (2) I also just happen to have crossed over into the station safe-zone (3) in a system where the police actually care enough to do their job properly, and come defend my sorry Asp. I also (4) happen to have installed a docking computer, and (5) it is, thankfully, still operational. ... Press that C-key, man. Go get yourself docked and repaired. ... Else, I hope I remembered to pack an escape pod again, or that I saved the game when I last docked in the previous system.

*

Here's a test/challenge: launch in a vanilla Cobra Mk III, fly out straight to the beacon, flip over, and cover the top part of the screen with a piece of paper/cloth/galactic hitch-hiker's towel so that only the instruments are still visible. Please record your successful docking with a phone camera -- showing the covered screen -- upload to YouTube, and post the link to the video here in this thread. The goal is to dock blind, by means of instrument flight only. Oolite's HUD might allow for some cheating, though. Perhaps BBC Elite at https://bbc.xania.org/?disc1=sth%3AAcor ... Elite.zip# might be more appropriate, since that's where the roll and pitch gauges originate from in the first place. Type: CH."LOAD" at the command prompt, and press enter. (The double quotation mark " is above the 2-key, using SHIFT.)

...

I still don't see where roll and pitch gauges are ever really going to play a practically useful role. ...But I am more than willing to be convinced -- and impressed! Post that video, please.

Kind regards
user

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 5:19 pm

This is an old chestnut. The majority have argued that they are viewscreens, but there are some old ship models which have “real” windows on the outside - and one or two attempts to put pilots behind them!

How about 'it depends'?

Today's cars are operated by looking out of windows. But for reverse we more and more rely on camera and a monitor.
And increasingly the driving assistants use cameras - full self driving would not require windows at all.

So it depends on the car model and luxuries installed. More criteria would be vehicle size and intended use.

user2357 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 7:28 am

I am, however, not yet convinced of the usefulness of the roll and pitch gauges.

At least, they don't do any harm...


1) But building on Hiran's comment above, and noticing that all the spaceships have things which look like windows (however bizarre the sizes), perhaps one usually uses the View Screen (The Sanya Amiya TLF glare-reducing view screen shows a processed view of the exterior of the ship using feed from four digiFeed cameras mounted on the contours of the hull. The views are displayed at 4 terapixel resolution and are intelligently processed before being displayed to reduce glare from solar objects and to enhance the available light, allowing greater clarity. - Selezen's original 2006 wiki text from his Pilot's Reference Manual).

But in cases of emergency one might "lower" the damaged viewscreen and use the front window instead! (this would clearly need OXPing but should be doable, no?). Side and back views would be problematic, though, unless in a small ship with side windows (Vanilla Adders, Cobras, Mambas & Transporters only have a front window, Asp seems to also have a top window, Geckos, Kraits, Sidewinders & Worms might have side windows etc).


2) And you are ignoring their vital importance to the devotees of the Witchspace Lobster, whose piloting decisions rest on careful scrutiny of these gauges to determine the flux of the witchspace currents thus allowing them to correct the positioning of their craft for their ritual ablutions (do they have extra instrumentation for this too?). And, there are rumours of a secretive Hiranic cohort of the Church of Giles the Creator (based at Aronar?) who have similar regard for these all-important instruments. Not to mention those who fly to the witchpoint beacon to make their interstellar jumps from that point...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 12:17 pm

And, there are rumours of a secretive Hiranic cohort of the Church of Giles the Creator (based at Aronar?) who have similar regard for these all-important instruments.

What? How do we know about them? Has anyone ever made it back alive from visiting these guys?

BTW where is arquaebus?

hiran wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 3:50 pm

What? How do we know about them? Has anyone ever made it back alive from visiting these guys?

Well, there was this explorer type by the name of "Flibble" who landed on Aronar (in search of GalCoppic Missions?) and came across them hunched around the roulette wheel in a casino. Found out a bit about them, until they discovered that he was a devotee of some sect with a name like MQTT (Murderous Quasi-Tyrannical Torturers?), whereupon all hell broke loose and he was lucky to escape with his skin intact. The bones of the others are presumably mouldering away somewhere in a Deadly Goat Byre in the middle of a forest somewhere.

Arquebus probably decided that it was safest to keep as far away as possible from all these nutters.

Wildeblood wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 9:39 pm

I had an idea for a fancier HUD dial earlier today. <<-- Note to self.

Well? Spill the beans, sir!