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Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:12 pm
by hiran
Since OoliteStarter has matured, it is quite easy to play Oolite with a stable set of expansions.
Even if you give in and install different expansions, play a little and save the game, OoliteStarter can show and fix the active expansions when you want to resume a savegame where you left it. So far so good.
But while it is easy to recreate the same set of expansions, it is impossible to recreate the exact same versions. As soon as we add a new version of expansion X to the Expansion Catalogue we remove the previous one, leaving only the latest for a possible install. Furthermore, we expect users to always run the latest versions of the expansions (and Oolite likewise?).
Well, I notice that my set of expansions, that has worked well for quite some time has become wobbly. I have the latest version of Oolite 1.91, and I have the latest versions of the expansions. And I notice during dogfight I can no longer hold down control and do fine-grained ship movements to target Thargoid Robot Fighters. Even aiming at Thargoid Battleships has become difficult.
After playing a little, it even happened that Oolite crashed. So badly, it even took the parent process with it: OoliteStarter.
So badly, that it took the parent process with it: My Java IDE.
Triggered by that I started uninstalling some of the expansions and notice it is slightly better, but far from satisfactory.
Thus I'd like to raise awareness we need to figure out an approach what to look at when combining expansions.
What can we actually do in this respect?
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 8:54 pm
by Cholmondely
hiran wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:12 pm
Since OoliteStarter has matured, it is quite easy to play Oolite with a stable set of expansions.
Even if you give in and install different expansions, play a little and save the game, OoliteStarter can show and fix the active expansions when you want to resume a savegame where you left it. So far so good.
But while it is easy to recreate the same set of expansions, it is impossible to recreate the exact same versions. As soon as we add a new version of expansion X to the Expansion Catalogue we remove the previous one, leaving only the latest for a possible install. Furthermore, we expect users to always run the latest versions of the expansions (and Oolite likewise?).
Well, I notice that my set of expansions, that has worked well for quite some time has become wobbly. I have the latest version of Oolite 1.91, and I have the latest versions of the expansions. And I notice during dogfight I can no longer hold down control and do fine-grained ship movements to target Thargoid Robot Fighters. Even aiming at Thargoid Battleships has become difficult.
After playing a little, it even happened that Oolite crashed. So badly, it even took the parent process with it: OoliteStarter.
So badly, that it took the parent process with it: My Java IDE.
Triggered by that I started uninstalling some of the expansions and notice it is slightly better, but far from satisfactory.
Thus I'd like to raise awareness we need to figure out an approach what to look at when combining expansions.
What can we actually do in this respect?
We need to keep some of the old expansions.
We need the ones which run on v.1.90 for those AppleMac/Linux versions which won't update.
We need the ones which run on v.1.77.1 for those wanting to try the old Svengali missions
The older ones (for v.1.77.1) are saved on our wiki and various Box accounts dotted about the place. I've a large selection of the 1.90 ones. But I don't bother updating them once they work for me.
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:22 am
by hiran
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 8:54 pm
We need to keep some of the old expansions.
[...]
The actions you suggest definitely help to recreate a setup. And it is quite easy to implement:
When adding a new version of some expansion to the expansion catalog just do not at the same time delete the previous versions.
Advertising and discontinuation of expansions and their versions need to be two distinct events rather than a combination.
In parallel we need a way to check how expansions work together. Do they access the same resources? Do they work together or fight each other?
Expansions obviously take CPU and memory. Do they take too much? How much is too much? How much do they take?
I believe we have no way to measure anything here.
A first thing to look at could be therefore the framerate. How would one look at that?
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:57 am
by Cholmondely
hiran wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:22 am
Expansions obviously take CPU and memory. Do they take too much? How much is too much? How much do they take?
I believe we have no way to measure anything here.
A first thing to look at could be therefore the framerate. How would one look at that?
1) For those capable of estimating such things, Svengali designed some icons showing CPU/GPU/memory use:
Template:IconOXP - and there are a handful of OXP authors who use them (Thargoid, Phkb, etc.).
2) Framerate is shown when using either a nightly or a Developer's version of Oolite by pressing "F" (shift-f)
See
here - and the next section on "debugging keys"
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:32 am
by phkb
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:57 am
Framerate is shown when using either a nightly or a Developer's version of Oolite by pressing "F" (shift-f)
You have to pause the game first, then press shift-f.
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:07 am
by hiran
phkb wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:32 am
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:57 am
Framerate is shown when using either a nightly or a Developer's version of Oolite by pressing "F" (shift-f)
You have to pause the game first, then press shift-f.
Seems to work. I have 13 FPS when gliding through space. If ships are near it drops to 12, and eventually when something happens it is even 6 for a moment. Obviously that's my observation now. Next would be to figure out where time is going away...
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:16 am
by phkb
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:58 pm
by hiran
Ah, what a relief!
To figure out if the bad frame rate was introduced by OXPs I just used OoliteStarter and activated the 'Vanilla' flavour.
That triggered the removal of all expansions, which only took a few seconds.
Unfortunately my framerate is still at most 13. So I will try to find the issue on my Ubuntu desktop.
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:03 pm
by Cholmondely
hiran wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:58 pm
Ah, what a relief!
To figure out if the bad frame rate was introduced by OXPs I just used OoliteStarter and activated the 'Vanilla' flavour.
That triggered the removal of all expansions, which only took a few seconds.
Unfortunately my framerate is still at most 13. So I will try to find the issue on my Ubuntu desktop.
When I was running Ubuntu/Oolite on my AppleMac it was similarly hopeless... and the gaming window was a
sixth the size of the screen - if I enlarged it the hopelessness massively multiplied!
How long has it been that hopeless for?
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:52 pm
by hiran
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:03 pm
When I was running Ubuntu/Oolite on my AppleMac it was similarly hopeless... and the gaming window was a sixth the size of the screen - if I enlarged it the hopelessness massively multiplied!
How long has it been that hopeless for?
It was not that bad all the time. And my set of OXPs was quite stable given the fact that I switched them like crazy but always would be able to return to the same lot - with exception of the version as I described when opening the thread.
Now that I could find vanilla Oolite is that bad as well I am looking into the Ubuntu Nvidia combination. There is something about the driver.
And that would match the fact that just little time back I reinstalled my desktop from scratch to fix the problem with virtual machines. Unfortunately I had not taken any note on the display driver.
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:23 pm
by hiran
Got it. By installing the recommended Nvidia driver Oolite went to 75 FPS but the whole system was unstable.
With an older driver I am now between 65 and 73 FPS. Will test now with my OXP set...
Later...: Ok, now with restored expansions the FPS is somewhere between 59 and 64. That should be good enough. I'll mind the gap between the stars...
Finally: Yes, it works again. Am happy
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:47 pm
by Cholmondely
Now
you can try landing on a planet....
Re: Degrading Expansions?
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 5:48 am
by another_commander
phkb wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:16 am
Just dropping this info here for future reference: On Windows,
SpecialK is by far the best solution for framerate monitoring (and frame pacing and a whole lot of other, too many to list, things. It truly is the Swiss Army Knife of PC gaming). It works great with Oolite too.