Planetfall 2.0 (probably)

Discussion and information relevant to creating special missions, new ships, skins etc.

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Cholmondely
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by Cholmondely »

Might it make sense to do this as a team?

Select the same site so that the style is uniform and then between us we can just create a large selection of these for different planet economies and geographies.

Or maybe select a different AI site for each galaxy?
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by cbr »

phkb wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:06 am
I'm not a big fan of AI, but I have to say it can really work well for the task of creating images for someone like me who can't draw:
Image

Image

Image

Image

Not bad for a dozen or so words!
The landing site pictures are (standalone ) nice but for me these work immersion-breaking, I sense no connection with oolite...
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by hiran »

cbr wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:05 pm
The landing site pictures are (standalone ) nice but for me these work immersion-breaking, I sense no connection with oolite...
What would they need to have a connection with Oolite?
A logo in one of the corners would still break the immersion. A GPL license as watermark?

Should we reuse the texture map from coriolis stations? Would they look the same under the different sunlights and planet atmospheric conditions?

I believe there are so many parameters it's hard to say where the immersion would break.
Sunshine - Moonlight - Good Times - Oolite
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by cbr »

Somehow somewhere in my brains it;s connected to the landings from frontier elite 2 amiga :? :shock:

anyhow

skyline -> svg -> 3d

Image
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by Cholmondely »

cbr wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:07 pm
Somehow somewhere in my brains it's connected to the landings from frontier elite 2 amiga :? :shock:

anyhow

skyline -> svg -> 3d
So, if I understand, you prefer the Frontier style cities/spaceports.

I get the impression that those Frontier cities are all much of a muchness (due, no doubt, to early computer limitations). But in Oolite we not only have different human cultures (and economies and political systems) but also the species. A lobstoid city (Azaqu, Uscela etc... Teorge?) should look rather different from an insectoid one (Teraed, Riredi). No?

And would not a corporate space port (oodles of advertising, shops everywhere) look rather different from one in a feudal state (statues of local dukes)?

Reference: Life in the Frontier (for Main Orbital Stations, not planetary space-ports)
Species at bottom of post
Govt type and likely businesses at bottom of post
+Govt type and effects on station architecture/encounters/events
Communist Systems
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by cbr »

Cholmondely wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:38 am

I get the impression that those Frontier cities are all much of a muchness (due, no doubt, to early computer limitations). But in Oolite we not only have different human cultures (and economies and political systems) but also the species. A lobstoid city (Azaqu, Uscela etc... Teorge?) should look rather different from an insectoid one (Teraed, Riredi). No?
Not particular it's density but more it's use of point(s) of view...
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by Redspear »

Imagine any cityport/outpost image overlayed with a dark, partially transparent layer a la BGS (maybe a bit more transparent than that).

What you might then get us more of a 'feeling' of a port with the detail being rather more hazy. Is it underwater or not for example... are those domes or rocks... it might be hard to tell.

If I get a chance later then I might try a mock up with some of the above images with some different overlays.
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by Redspear »

Image

Image

Image

Image

You get the idea...

The tint layer (dark blue in this case) could even be related to sky colour if there were sufficient ease/time in production.

Ooh look, there's cbr's cityscape in the background :D
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by phkb »

Latest landing sample: YouTube PlanetFall2 with arrival report image
Almost blew myself up during this run!

Things to note: I've applied a slight red filter to the image, based on the air color of the planet. If this was landing on the dark side of the planet, I'm applying a dark blue filter to give it a night-time feel.

These filters are possible because I'm using the standard background and overlays available on a GUI screen, in this case, the arrival report. I can't do that during the animation/docking sequence.
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by Cholmondely »

cbr wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:13 am
Not particular it's density but more it's use of point(s) of view...
Just watched phkb's latest video (linked immediately above).

If we go with Phkb's story of the "docking computer" taking over, might that help make it more immersive?

We might also wish eventually to go with something better, where we have more control over the final stages of landing/docking. But then if our vanilla software does not support it...
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by cbr »

phkb wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:07 pm
Latest landing sample: YouTube PlanetFall2 with arrival report image
Almost blew myself up during this run!

Things to note: I've applied a slight red filter to the image, based on the air color of the planet. If this was landing on the dark side of the planet, I'm applying a dark blue filter to give it a night-time feel.

These filters are possible because I'm using the standard background and overlays available on a GUI screen, in this case, the arrival report. I can't do that during the animation/docking sequence.
Very nice touch with the 'filter' !
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by phkb »

I'm think the "corridor" docking animation is not quite right for landing, but I think I was on to something with the clouds. My current thought is have the clouds scroll up the screen to simulate a descent (rather than doing what I did before, which was to kind of zoom in on it). And maybe include a couple of frames with some sort of landscape/city skyline right at the end, just before we switch to the arrival report screen with it's background image. The idea is to hint that something is coming up beneath you, but not enough to actually see what it is, because my feeling is there are way too many options here to make that believable. Anyway, I'll have *another* play with it, and see what it looks like.

(And apologies if what I've just suggested is what you've been telling me to try all along. I get there in end!)
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by Thargoid »

I'd have to agree that the docking tunnel is an immersion-breaker.

That's why I did away with it in the original and went for the "zoomed landscape" animations instread. Would have been nice to have them move downward rather than moving towards them, but that was beyond my capabilities (and maybe Oolite's at the time).

The arrival report screen is an interesting idea, but other than that I would have to point out that after several pages of discussion, you're very much looping back towards where you started (and where I left off)...
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by phkb »

Thargoid wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:16 am
I would have to point out that after several pages of discussion, you're very much looping back towards where you started (and where I left off)...
:oops:
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Re: Planetfall 2.0 (maybe)

Post by Redspear »

I've got nothing here that I haven't tried to say before but then my ramblings aren't always understood it seems so my apologies as I try one more time...

Making something look better is always nice but more important is (usually) what it actually does.

So I mean no disrespect to Thargoid in saying that planet fall 1.0 was a marvellous proof of concept. It showed it could be done but not necessarily what to do with it.

The resultant exploit of other markets was balanced by rather significant maintenance costs. The problem was of course that without the exploit the only motivation was the novelty.

Some mission ideas have been discussed around outposts and so on but if the player can land at any planet at any time then why would they?

The usual motivator for docking is to make or spend credits and if it's the former then you have (at least potentially) a recurring exploit.

Can they instead offer something different? Note that doesn't have to be something new, it just has to be different from what the main station offers.

The reason the station exists in the first place is so that pilots don't have to land on the planet in order to trade, right? So if we're keeping stations then landing on a planet should IMHO offer something that stations cannot. If we were disigning a game from scratch then wouldn't that seem to be a fairly obvious design choice?

Maybe we have the problem of what to do because the inherited design (from elite) was to avoid planetary landing. By keeping stations as they are then we're perpetuating the 'solution' to a problem that this OXP no longer wishes to exist.

Oolite was made without planetary landing but it did add new features when docked (buy ships, contracts, maintenance). Without anywhere else to dock, all of them were added to the stations - there was no where else to put them.

Well, with planet fall enabled there suddenly is somewhere else.

Thus my earlier suggestion of moving a contract type to being available from a planet only. If not that then how about maintenance being planet only? or buying a new ship? or even buying equipment that needs to be installed (maybe not fuel or missiles)? In fact the last one might even make more sense around planet tech levels when GalCop can still maintain an orbital system in even the lowest tech level system.


If we try imagining it the other way round... what does the station offer that landing couldn't?

If the answer were nothing then why is it there?
If the result is an exploit then why do we want it there?

The original, elite answer to that question was a satisfactory landing/docking experience (for 1984).
Thats done, solved, fixed. We don't need another one unless there are some systems without stations.

So if we don't need it then how can we make it so that we want it?

It's easy to imagine missions to moons or outposts but if it's to be a core game (in the sense that it doesn't require additional planets or moons) land on any planet at any time feature then why?

How is a worthy question too but Thargoid answered that years ago. Doesn't mean his answer can't be improved upon but that still won't answer the why.


I've no wish to diminish the efforts thus far. Looping back on ourselves is fine as long as we've learned something.
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