Oolite Bulletins

From this post on, this thread becomes the development thread for Hiran's Oolite Starter programme which should eventually marry your saved files with their relevant OXPs

Following on from Hiran's initial thread, I just wished to describe the larger picture as I see it, with one or two ideas for where we as a community might wish to go.

We have a sandbox of opportunities - but need to work to realise any of them. What we already have is good and satisfies many of us in the community. But we may well wish to attract others - as well as try and satisfy some of our community who specifically desire certain improvements.


One path is Hiran's.

He has come up with a scheme to include elements of multi-player gaming in Oolite - but this requires a more robust development of the game, where we return to regularly rolling out nightlies so that his necessary tweaks to the vanilla game code can be tested. And we need to help him in doing this.

The need for this is based on the observation that there have been a large number of comments in many places on the web that people would have stayed with Oolite had multi-player been an option.

Critique
1) Some of us are AppleMac users, and this path leaves us out (not Hiran's fault - he worked tirelessly over many long hours to try and include the AppleMac).
2) We do not know how genuine the sentiments of those wishing for Multi-Player really are.
3) With 1100+ OXPs, how do we satisfy the wishes of players who want (say) the Galactic Navy in their Ooniverse with those who can't stand it? Admittedly many of the oxp's are not problematic (retextures, or many ambience ones for example).

Of course, if this path attracts enough new players, than all of these criticisms become redundant.



A second path is that of the OXPs.

The major improvements in the Vanilla game since 2015 have been graphical. This allows for major improvements regarding the oxps, if we have the skills and can be bothered.

The main problem is the bewildering assortment of 1100 OXPs and the heavy investment of time needed to work out what is what.

I believe that what is needed is a small selection of meta-OXPs which create ready-made content-filled universes for the player.

The following seem to me to be possible candidates:
• Stranger's World (more realistic, might need minor tweaking)
• Elite Trader (just trading, but this might need no work at all)
• SOTL Exploration (needs some work - HUD, new station-ship, use of commodities to create new equipment...)
• Far Planets (seems very incomplete - needing many more systems, or am I wrong?)

I believe that we could also do with several politics/wars options, combining for example Montana05's Invasion OXP with the Galactic Navy.
• All-out battle against the Thargoids. Starting with the current situation (minor raids) but getting worse and worse, with systems falling into anarchy, or being taken over by the Thargoids. I am presuming that we do not already have such an OXP.
• Political change in GalCop. A commie takeover of several sections of each galaxy. Or a corporate takeover. Or the rise of a new dictator. Or the rise of anarchy and of piracy.
• A new politic with two or three political blocs, the universe divided between them and a war about to start (sneak a peek at SOTL AltMap)

Critique
1) To create even one of the politics/war options would be a lot of work. We do have many of the needed elements, but would need to create more and also to iron out bugs in some of the current OXPs (eg Diplomancy). Are we up to it?
2) Galactic Navy copyright issues may well scupper some of this. Personally, I think that we can ignore these.

Of course, once a player elects to choose one of the various universes, they can - of course - add in other OXPs to tweak their cocktail as desired.


What have I missed?

Reference Section:
•Enable Oolite development
•Changing Oolite...
•Nexus - Hiran's multi-player tweaks (and see "Links" at the bottom of the page).
•OXPs - Strategic thinking!

Less relevant
•Oolite interaction with Expansion Packs
•Oolite as exploration game
•Stranger's Roolite Essay #1 (adding flavour & depth to Galaxy 1)
•Musings for v.1.92
•OXP Categories (Analysis/Discussion)
•The First Amphiboly of the Architectonic of Oolite
•Popularising Oolite in Different Languages

Edited to add in Reference Section

Your second section echoes comments I made a while back, so I'll get to that in a minute, but I want to address section 1 first regarding multiplayer.

There are (generally) four kinds of multiplayer, and it's critical to know which one we're talking about here.

1 - massively multiplayer or large server
2 - arena / battlegrounds
3 - small group co-op
4 - asynchronous

I'll say up front I don't think (1) is worth the time and effort required to achieve it. Even a "large" (32 or 64 person) private server option is probably not worthwhile. There is, quite bluntly, no "market" for it. No audience. No *players.* The nearest analogue I can think of at the moment is Evochron Legacy, which has large server multiplayer, and its concurrent player count across three public servers is usually somewhere south of 3. You might be able to siphon off some minuscule percentage of Elite Dangerous players, but again, how worthwhile is the time and effort required to serve the small number of players who would be interested long-term?

As for (2), that's not really Oolite's style or strength. And it still runs into the problem with (1). Games like Infinity: Battlescape don't have population, either.

(3) This is probably the heart of the bell curve for MP in Oolite. Peer-to-peer connections or ad hoc servers for two or three players to play together. I'm assuming (without having dug deep) that this is the path currently being taken by the multiplayer work.

(4) Async multiplayer is basically what they're doing with X4 Foundations right now. No one's actually connected together, but data from one player's save gets uploaded to a central server and then downloaded by other players into their save. This allows things like ships to be transferred across, or resources, cargo, etc. It "feels" like multiplayer even though it's strictly speaking just data files being copied across saves to alter the save state of the receiving player's game. This option might be relatively easy to implement (compared to the first three), and I suspect it would be easier to manage OXP conflicts.

Okay, that's all I've got to say at the moment about MP. Now on to my particular hobby horse: expansions and the nature of the base game.

I'm not going to re-hash my original comments other than to say that I am of the very strong belief that the single biggest impediment to wider adoption of Oolite is the state/condition of the base game. Oolite "vanilla" is, for all intents and purposes, a recreation of a game from the 80s. Most players have absolutely no nostalgia for the 80s. Only those of us who were there. So most players are just experiencing Oolite as a clunky, weird, inefficient game with a bizarre UI. It's charming, but it's not *fun* in the way that modern players expect.

The simplest solution to this, I believe, would be incorporation of a set number of well curated OXPs that improve the "quality of life" of play. If we don't want to ravage the original intent of the game these incorporations could be presented as an alternate "modernized" download. (And I want to be absolutely clear here: I don't mean a special OXP in the manager that auto-loads all of these QoL expansions. We have that. It's not good enough. I mean that when you fire up "modern" Oolite for the first time all of these modifications are already in place.)

OXPs like Stranger's World and the ones listed in the comment above are necessary but not sufficient: there would also have to be UI changes. The UI OXPs that I use in my YouTube playthrough would be my recommendation. They make Oolite look like a modern indie game rather than a relic. I know a lot of us have a soft spot for the very 80s HUD (and the variant OXPs that tweak the HUD slightly), but I will go to the wall arguing that the single biggest improvement to a new player's enjoyment of the look of Oolite will be the Vimana HUD. If we do nothing else, we've got to make that the default.

Then, some brave soul would have to completely revamp the Expansions Manager UI. For new players it is absolutely daunting, and even for semi-old hats like myself, there are obvious affordances missing. For example, there should be a menu option to filter the list beyond just the installed vs. everything toggle we have right now. In particular, it would be great to be able to see only those OXPs that need to be updated. Right now they're color coded - with a color that's too easy to miss and might not be great for people who are color-blind. Is there any chance that we could incorporate a view into the wiki for OXPs that have entries? Having a non-selectable link as a description in the EM is... not great.

And finally, someone's got to do something about the controller support. It seems to be operating on rubber bands and toothpicks. If you glance at it wrong everything breaks. Modern players want either really solid KB+M support (which Oolite sort of has, though it doesn't include modern control methods like you find in No Man's Sky, such as untethered mouse movement) or really solid controller/HOTAS support. Controllers work kinda sorta okay in Oolite but it would need to be able to accommodate a much wider range of devices. HOTAS support is also a must. Right now, even quite apart from the fact that some of the most common HOTAS devices only partially work in Oolite, there's no way to set an absolute throttle axis - which means that throttle devices are close to useless.

Oh, and while they're at it, someone also has to clean up the discrepancies in the hotkey list. The list in-game names the keys very differently from the way they're named in the cheat sheet, and for many of the hotkeys it is unclear what they actually do - especially since the names (in-game vs. cheat sheet) are different and seem to refer to entirely different things.

(Edit: one more thing! MFD selection needs to be easier and there needs to be a way to make the MFD names clearer in the lists when you're selecting them. Some of them have weirdly generic or programmer-friendly names, making it unclear what they do. And every active MFD should have its name listed above the box. Right now it's kind of a shoulder-shrug-emoji trying to figure out which interface goes to which MFD equipment.)

I personally have no programming experience to speak of and cannot contribute in any meaningful way other than being snarky. The thing I do "best" in terms of exposing the wider world to Oolite is by (still) being the only person (out of all the millions of YouTube creators) producing regular Oolite YouTube content. We could use more of that! People will come to Oolite if they like what they see. Which means two things: they have to like it, but first they have to see it.

@Cholmondely, @Arquebus: You did a nice write-up there.

Regarding the Multiplayer way:

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 8:26 am

3) With 1100+ OXPs, how do we satisfy the wishes of players who want (say) the Galactic Navy in their Ooniverse with those who can't stand it? Admittedly many of the oxp's are not problematic (retextures, or many ambience ones for example).

That could be treated like many multiplayers treat it, and it resembles the way OXZs are treated:
For every OXZ the manifest specifies which other OXZs it accepts, or does not accept.
In multiplayer, we could host different game configurations that come with whitelists and blacklists of OXPs. If players try to join do not have them (although listed as must-have) or have them (although listed as forbidden) Oolite could come up with a message informing the user about the situation and with suggestions to go:
- install missing and uninstall/deactivate forbidden to enter the game
- do not enter the game

So that on it's own should not be a showstopper.

arquebus wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 4:17 pm

There are (generally) four kinds of multiplayer, and it's critical to know which one we're talking about here.

1 - massively multiplayer or large server
2 - arena / battlegrounds
3 - small group co-op
4 - asynchronous

Having read your definition for the four, my attempt to implement multiplayer is somewhere between 3 and 4.

Although i can imagine since Oolite does contain dogfight elements in single player it would be tempting to do the same as a group, or even fleets crashing into each other. Technically this is a different league but the thought is not far-fetched. But nobody said we have to go for 1 even if it is tempting.
And while implementing at least something we might attract more people, maybe even willing to help.
But I also acknowledge it is by far more work and the acceptance may vary. Looking further, today there is noone on the horizon who can really help here.


Regarding the OXP way:

OXPs have been there for a number of years. The community has created a lot of plugins with varying quality - but that alone shows the concepts were well-accepted. Refurbishing, completing or finalizing some should be a low hanging fruit to make Oolite more attractive. So I am all for it. Which does not mean I do not like the multiplayer way any more.

Another way to think about OXPs, which would dovetail/supplement stuff I've written above and expand on hiran's comment:

EGOSOFT, the makers of the X series, have always put out an "official community mods" pack toward the end of the life cycle of their games. (I'm sure other devs do this, too, but they're the ones that come to mind). If a small set of high quality OXPs of exceptional value (beyond the ones I think should be in a default package) could be organized, there could be a toggle within the game to turn them all on at once. This would be a version of the existing multi-OXP packages. The main distinction is that they would be presented to the player separately from the full list of the expansions manager. The existing multi-load packages (the brown colored ones, I think?) are all just higgledy-piggledy distributed within the EM list, which I think is suboptimal for the new player experience. Heck, even something as simple as adding an OXP category for "multi-OXP packages" (or whatever you'd call them) that sorts at the top would be valuable.

I was thinking of a new category: Universes / Ooniverses which would be the various meta-OXPs I mentioned at the top.

As regards your idea, Arquebus, of including Vimana/Telescope etc, maybe we could weave them into the initial game choices (Normal Start/Easy Start/Tutorial/Strict Mode)?

Include your OXPs and activate them as part of Normal Start & Easy Start.

Leave Strict mode as it is and either re-introduce our current OXP-less Normal/Easy Start as say "Basic Start for OXPing" or make it obvious that one can change the OXPs for the new Normal Start. The second might be easier to manage.

And maybe have two sets of tutorials? A normal start tutorial and a basic start tutorial?

I hope that that makes sense!

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 8:26 am

What have I missed?

From the critique of your hypothesised oxp path:

3) Adoption of any oxp changes an option into a default. As such there is a risk of narrowing appeal along with enhancing the game.

Arguably the 'best' oxps are the ones that make fundamental changes to a game that are in like with the user's preferences. Users are a somewhat variable bunch however.

arquebus wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 4:17 pm

I'm not going to re-hash my original comments other than to say that I am of the very strong belief that the single biggest impediment to wider adoption of Oolite is the state/condition of the base game. Oolite "vanilla" is, for all intents and purposes, a recreation of a game from the 80s. Most players have absolutely no nostalgia for the 80s. Only those of us who were there.

It's also Oolite's niche.

It brought many of us here and it's part of the justification for using all of elite's original assests (galaxy maps, ships, equipment etc.)
So you're right but a niche (however small) can be a valuable thing and at least now we have one.

arquebus wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 4:17 pm

So most players are just experiencing Oolite as a clunky, weird, inefficient game with a bizarre UI. It's charming, but it's not *fun* in the way that modern players expect.

Right, so 'fixes' of what's already there needn't change the flavour or content. The essential appeal of oolite isn't a clunky 1984 UI (or at least, I don't think it is...)

arquebus wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 4:17 pm

OXPs like Stranger's World and the ones listed in the comment above are necessary but not sufficient

That is an oxp which, to my understanding, makes a number of significant (some might say drastic) changes to the game.
As an oxp that's cool but as you appear to be imagining it...

arquebus wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 4:17 pm

And I want to be absolutely clear here: I don't mean a special OXP in the manager that auto-loads all of these QoL expansions. We have that. It's not good enough. I mean that when you fire up "modern" Oolite for the first time all of these modifications are already in place.

that's likely to be highly divisive in terms of gameplay preference, for new players as well as old.

arquebus wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 4:17 pm

The UI OXPs that I use in my YouTube playthrough would be my recommendation. They make Oolite look like a modern indie game rather than a relic. I know a lot of us have a soft spot for the very 80s HUD (and the variant OXPs that tweak the HUD slightly), but I will go to the wall arguing that the single biggest improvement to a new player's enjoyment of the look of Oolite will be the Vimana HUD. If we do nothing else, we've got to make that the default.

Vimana HUD looks cool. That's my opinion. It looks more modern that the default HUD. That's more of a fact I think.

It also has a bunch of bells, whistles and even upgrades that are potentially confusing, overwhelming and oxp specific in terms of Griff's shipset. All relatively minor quibbles but is it any more readable? Much as I like it (and it was my personal default for a while) I'm not sure that the answer is yes. The very dials that drew me to it in the first place were much less obvious in my periphery and somehow less visceral in gameplay. The ship targetting icons look great (I wouldn't have hidden them behind in-game purchases) and something I've tried to do before.

So what have I got besides naysaying?

Sticking to the HUD example for now. Design one for purpose. Specifically, not with the idea of 'what would I like?' but rather 'what is the problem?'
The former works great for optional inclusion (oxp) but much less so for default.

So what are the HUD problems?

Looks old? - that's a relatively easy design fix, some overlay image placement within the HUD could solve that. Fighter HUD, Walnut Dash, Steampunk HUD, Deepspace HUD show some of the variety possible here. None of them look super modern I don't think (and some are less readable) but the sheer variety they display illustrates lots of room for manouver. Nothing wrong with vanilla but we currrently have old vanilla, maybe we can at least upgrade to modern.

Doesn't do X? - if x is standard issue in most games of similar nature then there's a strong argument for it's inclusion but it needn't be heavy handed.
For example the default game does give an incoming missile warning but it's rather subtle considering it can be a near death sentence on a maiden flight. The game already has a speech option that is fairly subtle and I think that 'incoming missile' would be a good use of it; rather than the 'all or nothing approach' of speaking every time one changes view for example or not at all.

Really, what other problems are there (I appreciate that the second one is rather broad)?

By comparison, Vimana HUD makes lots of changes that are not only cosmetic but also radical. Are a lack of dials really the problem or is it just that the default HUD looks a bit too much like a kid has got their crayons out?

What problem would Stranger's World be fixing? I have the impression that it's a very fine oxp but it's adding realism (or at least a perception of such) when I'm not sure that a lack of realism is oolite's real problem (at least the extent to which is being discussed here re attracting new players). Again, as an oxp it means more choice, great! But as a default, like almost any other oxp, it's not.

So re the oxp solution/suggestion my essential point is that many of them are not fit for the purpose imagined here precisely because they weren't designed for it.

I mean zero disrepect to any oxp authors here and include my own oxps in the prior remark. Maybe masslock reimagined is an exception for me but I expect there are plenty that think themselves (and indeed the game) better off without it.

I do believe that there should always be a non-messed-with version of the game alongside the "modernized" one. My interest isn't in replacing vanilla Oolite with a gussied-up Oolite, but to provide a rapid on-ramp for a modernized Oolite that likely a sizable number of new players would prefer.

I agree that the 80s nostalgia trip is Oolite's niche currently. Of course it is: that's primarily how it's "advertised" (if such a thing can be said). But if the goal, as premised by the thread, is to expand the player base, we cannot merely rely on the niche that Oolite has likely already saturated.

It is possible to bootstrap up to a version of Oolite that is more appealing (in UI/UX) to 21st century sensibilities, but that takes time, knowledge and a minimum threshold of risk-taking. My view is that if we can eliminate those three impediments by offering a curated "modern" Oolite alongside the base version, the game's reach will expand.

The more I consider it, the more I think that the simplest and least radical answer might actually be in a revamp of the Expansions Manager. Specifically, an addition to the category list such that there would be a "bundle" or "preset" category that sorts to the top, where all of the multi-OXP-loading OXPs would sit. They would appear right at the top. Then, we could build different "Alt-lites" using those bundle OXPs, in the style of the ones that already exist, but designed minimally and specifically for new player onboarding.

This would also make it so that players with different opinions about what makes a good baseline Oolite could build their own bundle OXPs.

Other aspects of the EM would need to be updated as well. Not specifically to serve the above idea but to clean up some things that the EM currently doesn't do in the most obvious or expected way. For example, there should be filters for a) all OXPs, b) installed only, c) not installed only, d) needs updating only, e) whatever other filter concepts we might want to add. There should also be a way to get a top level list of the categories so you can select only the category you want to look at. (Right now getting to the ships OXPs is a bit of a process.) Making wiki entry links in descriptions live in some form. Incorporating the list of OXPs manually installed by the player so that they can be toggled on/off. And so on.

Ignoring implementation for the moment. Imagine you start up oolite, then from the main menu you select 'New Game'.

Next screen you see is not your ship profile but instead a selection screen.

"Select your initial UI skin", with a few picture examples. Choose one and it downloads if not already present..
Then another screen, "Select your initial Shipset", again with corresponding pictures.
Then another.

• "Select your initial..."
  • Planet textures
    Planet options
    HUD
    Sound set
    etc.

Too many would just be a chore but half a dozen or so might be a start. With the possible exception of shipsets and HUDs there aren't that many options within each of the example categories above, so it needn't be bewildering.

Would something like this help?

Encouraging choice (of oxp) without expecting the player to do so much work (research) or have such a bland first play before even considering looking at the plethora of oxp options.

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 8:19 am

Ignoring implementation for the moment. Imagine you start up oolite, then from the main menu you select 'New Game'.

Next screen you see is not your ship profile but instead a selection screen.

"Select your initial UI skin", with a few picture examples. Choose one and it downloads if not already present..
Then another screen, "Select your initial Shipset", again with corresponding pictures.
Then another.

• "Select your initial..."
  • Planet textures
    Planet options
    HUD
    Sound set
    etc.

Too many would just be a chore but half a dozen or so might be a start. With the possible exception of shipsets and HUDs there aren't that many options within each of the example categories above, so it needn't be bewildering.

Would something like this help?

Encouraging choice (of oxp) without expecting the player to do so much work (research) or have such a bland first play before even considering looking at the plethora of oxp options.

I like the idea that you do not have expansions installed or not but actually activate them per game.
This way you can have different games/save games with different sets of OXPs active.

There is a problem with only rejigging the Expansions Manager. Or adding more choice to the start menu.

How will people learn to play the game with the various frills and options added in from the start?

The Tutorial?

Now. We don't know how vital the Tutorial really is. Just because I spent a lot of time on it two years ago (and printed out and read the various .pdfs included with the download) does not mean that any of Arquebus's YouTube devotees do the same. Or the massive flood of new players who came in with the Gamestar coverage.

But I presume that the tutorial is the easiest way to learn the game. And that takes time.

We want to entice people in - so we need to make things easy for them to pick up. So, as Arquebus suggests, we should use just the one new HUD for all of the new prepackaged "Universal category oxp's". And include Telescope. And various of the other OXPs which we decide on.

I feel that there may well be a need for a second version of the tutorial which covers the new additions. So the Vimana HUD (or a modified Vimana if we go down that route). And the various tweaks with Telescope (masslock boundaries and the changes to the scanner lollipops, etc.). And whatever else ends up being added in.

If this is seen as too involved, another option might be putting up some films on YouTube. Create an Oolite Tutorial section which uses say the Vimana and with introductions to Telescope, the Stranger's World universe, etc. But that means that we need somebody with (1) the equipment, (2) the knowledge of Telescope etc (3) the patience to put up with the "helpful" comments from the rest of us & (4) the time and enthusiasm!

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 10:50 am

There is a problem with only rejigging the Expansions Manager. Or adding more choice to the start menu.

How will people learn to play the game with the various frills and options added in from the start?

The Tutorial?

Now. We don't know how vital the Tutorial really is. Just because I spent a lot of time on it two years ago (and printed out and read the various .pdfs included with the download) does not mean that any of Arquebus's YouTube devotees do the same. Or the massive flood of new players who came in with the Gamestar coverage.

But I presume that the tutorial is the easiest way to learn the game. And that takes time.

We want to entice people in - so we need to make things easy for them to pick up. So, as Arquebus suggests, we should use just the one new HUD for all of the new prepackaged "Universal category oxp's". And include Telescope. And various of the other OXPs which we decide on.

I feel that there may well be a need for a second version of the tutorial which covers the new additions. So the Vimana HUD (or a modified Vimana if we go down that route). And the various tweaks with Telescope (masslock boundaries and the changes to the scanner lollipops, etc.). And whatever else ends up being added in.

If this is seen as too involved, another option might be putting up some films on YouTube. Create an Oolite Tutorial section which uses say the Vimana and with introductions to Telescope, the Stranger's World universe, etc. But that means that we need somebody with (1) the equipment, (2) the knowledge of Telescope etc (3) the patience to put up with the "helpful" comments from the rest of us & (4) the time and enthusiasm!

The tutorial, as well as the manual only describe the basic game and basic principles. The rest is left to the player for exploration.
But then there are quite some unintuitive constellations, or the game gets changed by addition of ships and equipment.

Somehow I feel like we should have snippets of documentation, tutorial or videos describing the various items as well. And when the player comes up with a specific combination of OXPs to play with, he will get an assembly of manual, tutorial and video coverage matching his game.

Assembling such content based on the list of OXPs should not be too rocket science. Creating the content is the challenge.

My only competence is in making videos and writing narrative. So if we want "official" tutorial videos I can put those together with actual scripts so that it's not off the cuff like my usual stuff. This may be beyond the scope of the question/issue but perhaps an official YouTube channel for Oolite would not be a bad thing. In the absence of that, though, I certainly wouldn't mind having a dedicated playlist for Oolite tutorials on my channel.

arquebus wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:56 pm

My only competence is in making videos and writing narrative. So if we want "official" tutorial videos I can put those together with actual scripts so that it's not off the cuff like my usual stuff. This may be beyond the scope of the question/issue but perhaps an official YouTube channel for Oolite would not be a bad thing. In the absence of that, though, I certainly wouldn't mind having a dedicated playlist for Oolite tutorials on my channel.

Thanks for the kind the offer! You do realise that it would entail lots of mugging up on Oolite details such as the intricacies of Telescope etc. You will probably end up totally destroying your enjoyment of the game!

But before we can do any of this, we need to decide on the OXPs/game versions.

Are there any game versions which I've missed in my first post above? Say, an adumbrated vanilla version with the Political Systems OXPs, Market Observer, Market Inquirer, the Additional Planets suite (with SFEP), & Paddling Pool. And maybe one or two of Redspear's Masslock-solvers. And Vimana HUD & Telescope.

arquebus wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 2:21 am

The more I consider it, the more I think that the simplest and least radical answer might actually be in a revamp of the Expansions Manager.
[...]

I agree. The in-game user interface used to be state of the art - but that is decades ago. Today I wish I had a better overview.
This applies not just to the OXPs but also the equipment and it's status. What can I buy? What can I sell? What can I repair? It is all one long unsorted list. And the handling is all but state of the art.

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 8:19 am

Ignoring implementation for the moment. Imagine you start up oolite, then from the main menu you select 'New Game'. [...]

While it is good to have a goal (and that is implementation indpendent indeed) at some point in time we have to come back to implementation.
Do we have anyone capable of programming Objective-C? Do we have any means of adding state-of the art widgets for the Station UI?
We may have to go for a workaround here, which would not just open new options but also remove others.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2023 10:50 am

There is a problem with only rejigging the Expansions Manager. Or adding more choice to the start menu.

How will people learn to play the game with the various frills and options added in from the start?

IMHO the described problem is not new. With the existing Oolite new players can install a whole bunch of expansions before having played at all. with that they would never learn the difference one of the OXPs did to the game. Do they have to? Do they want it?

Revamping the Expansion Manager will neither introduce the problem, nor will it resolve it. But having a better overview of what is installed can add some insight.