Oolite Bulletins

Phkb's inspired work on his Hermitage OXP has led me to think about what the TLs really mean.

1) My starting point is Disembodied's post here:

Disembodied wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 9:05 am

gsagostinho wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:45 am

One more idea that could be super immersive: the amount of city lights could depend on the type of economy, so that rich industrial countries have much more lights (and perhaps more complex structures) than poor agricultural ones. Feudal planets could have the light disabled altogether!

Definitely - economy, tech level and population size could all influence the city lights. In Galaxy 1, Maesin is a Poor Agricultural, TL1, population 0.8 billion; Ceesxe is a Rich Industrial, TL15, population 6.4 billion. Their night sides would look very different!

Maybe city lights shouldn't appear at all until (say) TL3 or 4? Using Traveller as a guide, TL0-3 is classed as the "Very Low Technology Epoch", using stone, wood, basic metals, dray beasts, sails, water wheels, and the first steam engines. TL4-6 is the "Low Technology Epoch", with early atomic science, the first factories, internal combustion engines, and increasingly destructive military technologies. TL7-9 is the "Middle Technology Epoch", possessing increasingly advanced technologies including space travel, advanced computers, and increasingly dense cities (I'd estimate that present-day Earth is maybe TL7).

My analysis of this:
TL0 = Sundials, waterclocks, irrigation systems
TL1 = Roman engineering?
TL2 = Medieval Clockwork (Exeter cathedral clock)
TL 3 = Georgian period (Industrial Revolution) - canals, railways, excellent clockwork (Abraham-Louis Breguet)
TL 4 = Victorian period
TL 5 = WW1 technology
TL 6 = WW2 technology
TL7 = 1960s onwards

2) Now let's add in Elite/Oolite information:

Information from the Vanilla Game:
TL1 orbital stations sell Fuel (Oolite quirium fuel may be horrendously explosive. But classic Elite fuel?)
TL2 orbital stations sell Missiles & Cargo Bay Expansions
TL3 orbital stations sell E.C.M.
TL 4 orbital stations sell Pulse Lasers
TL 5 orbital stations sell Beam Lasers & External Heat Shielding
TL 6 orbital stations sell Fuel Scoops. Multi-Targeting Systems & Passenger Berths are new, after Elite
TL 7 orbital stations sell Escape Pods. Advanced Navigational Arrays, Quirium Cascade Mines and the Maintenance Overhaul are new to Oolite
TL 8 orbital stations sell the Advanced Space Compass (new to Oolite)
TL 9 orbital stations sell Extra Energy Units. The Target System Memory Expansions is new to Oolite.
TL 10 orbital stations sell Docking Computers. ECM Hardened Missiles & Wormhole Scanners are new to Oolite.
TL 11 orbital stations sell Galactic Hyperdrives, Military Lasers, Mining Lasers. Shield Boosters & Witchdrive Fuel Injectors are new to Oolite.
TL 12 orbital stations sell Scanner Targeting Enhancements & Integrated Targeting Systems (both Oolite).
TL 14 orbital stations sell Military Shield Enhancements (Oolite only).

Sources: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual (Classic Elite - BBC version only), Wiki page on Oolite Equipment.

3) Initial thoughts on the above.
The two lists are utterly discordant. In Traveller TL 3 can at best manage the dreadfully inaccurate clock in Exeter cathedral. In Elite/Oolite, TL3 can sell you a ECM.

But, the bottom list is only the orbital station. On the one hand the orbital station must have electricity and electricians, engineers and high technology in order to run. And the orbital stations are installed and run by GalCop and possibly subsidised by the system's government. So they do not necessarily reflect the TL of the planet. Ceesxe (TL15) may enable installation of equipment in its orbital which Maesin & Qudira (TL1) can't in theirs.

I cannot see the TL1 of Maesin as being the TL of Maesin's Orbital station.

This does not answer the question of why one can't buy imported Lasers at Maesin. I would suggest that this is due to the constraints of 8-bit Elite and the wish to vary the Galaxies and make the game fun. Which does not help us, playing Oolite. We will need handwavium to explain this away (GalCop policy, Maesin's policy (anarchies don't have such things) etc).

4) Initial conclusion.
An orbital station cannot meaningfully have a TL of 1. The orbital TL is independent of the planet it orbits.

This leads to issues over how to address the difference between planet and orbital.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:10 pm

This leads to issues over how to address the difference between planet and orbital.

Such as?

If you mean with regards to lighting then maybe the higher tech worlds wouldn't even have anything so innefficient as to cast light pollution into space. I think the assumption that higher tech = brighter / more frequent / differently coloured lights is questionable at best.

Population, economy, government, inhabitants and even culture (strictly no activity at night) could all alter lighting considerably and in ways that might interact confusingly. If I had to predict a correllation between tech level and planetary lighting visible from space then it would be something like this:

Lowest tech: no lights
Low tech: few lights
Medium tech: lots of lights
High tech: few lights
Highest tech: no lights

Confusing huh?

Do agricultures have more lights to ensure prolonged photosynthesis or less because plants don't work/drive/party at night (...even when we're not looking)?
If we go by population then what about planet size?
If we go by inhabitants then do lobsters light the land or the water? If the latter, can the lights be seen from space?
And so on and so on...

My suggestion: don't link lights to tech level - if it makes little more sense than randomisation then go random (at least then you'll get some curious results suggesting variance).

What he said!

Redspear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:14 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:10 pm

This leads to issues over how to address the difference between planet and orbital.

Such as?

If you mean with regards to lighting then maybe the higher tech worlds wouldn't even have anything so inefficient as to cast light pollution into space. I think the assumption that higher tech = brighter / more frequent / differently coloured lights is questionable at best.

Population, economy, government, inhabitants and even culture (strictly no activity at night) could all alter lighting considerably and in ways that might interact confusingly. If I had to predict a correllation between tech level and planetary lighting visible from space then it would be something like this:

Lowest tech: no lights
Low tech: few lights
Medium tech: lots of lights
High tech: few lights
Highest tech: no lights

Confusing huh?

Do agricultures have more lights to ensure prolonged photosynthesis or less because plants don't work/drive/party at night (...even when we're not looking)?
If we go by population then what about planet size?
If we go by inhabitants then do lobsters light the land or the water? If the latter, can the lights be seen from space?
And so on and so on...

My suggestion: don't link lights to tech level - if it makes little more sense than randomisation then go random (at least then you'll get some curious results suggesting variance).

I included Gsagostinho's quote purely to give the context to why Disembodied started defining TL. My interest here is not the lighting - although your comments are intriguing (as usual).

No, my interest is sparked by Phkb's new Hermitage OXP. If you look at his tables, you will see that for his Core Systems, for example, the 6 levels of Life Support System require a minimum TL of between 1 to 11. His 6 varieties of fuel reserves require a TL of 1. His 6 types of (mineral?) refinery need machinery from a world of TL2+ up to TL 11+. So before sitting down and trying to work all of that out in some coherent form, I thought first just to explore the issues of TL generally.

Et cetera, et cetera.

So that's what I'm up to. But just to think about your assertion for a second, I can see your argument that culture might well trump earlier economic needs as the TL increases, and thus the highest TLs would find other less light-polluting ways to meet the needs otherwise met by light-polluting sources. It makes sense.

I have one or two ideas about Hermitage's TL needs, but I'm curious first to see if people agree with my analysis of TL - or if I can be shown to be barking up a gum tree.

By "the difference between planet and orbital" I purely meant the TL difference. Apologies!

Reference: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Hermitage

TL is a fairly nebulous concept in the game, and one that I'm not sure makes a lot of sense. Having an economy drive what commodities are available and for what price is reasonable, but that means (a) the planet has all the infrastructure in place to allow for a significant amount of stuff to be transported to the main station hovering over the planet, and (b) the planet has agreed to this transfer in some official capacity. In my mind, that would mean there is a base-level of technological and governmental competence on the planet to support this.

But why should the station be limited in what equipment it can supply? While I can concede that destructive equipment (lasers, missiles, bombs, etc) should have a modicum of control over who can purchase them, why are fuel scoops limited to TL6+ systems? Why are docking computers limited to TL10+ systems? The amount of technology on display just by having a Coriolis station in orbit would seem to indicate that all these standard equipment items should be available everywhere. Even if they aren't being produced locally, shouldn't they still be available at a premium driven by demand and the distance from the supplier? Surely there would be a market for getting your ship outfitted with standard kit, meaning there would be equipment deliveries on a regular basis.

If equipment isn't available, then the reason is not the TL of the planet. Now were into the policy and governance side of things. And it's here that I think much of the handwavium takes place.

From a gameplay perspective, the system makes sense: the idea is to make the game more challenging by limiting where you can purchase some equipment. That means you need to travel, which means NPC interactions, battles, etc. ie. it makes you engage with the game. But logically it's a little harder to explain.

Not sure if I have an answer to any of this. Coming up with a logical explanation for it all would be a handy reference for future players and OXP devs. Retroactively applying it to existing OXPs would be challenging.

phkb wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:34 am

TL is a fairly nebulous concept in the game, and one that I'm not sure makes a lot of sense. Having an economy drive what commodities are available and for what price is reasonable, but that means (a) the planet has all the infrastructure in place to allow for a significant amount of stuff to be transported to the main station hovering over the planet, and (b) the planet has agreed to this transfer in some official capacity. In my mind, that would mean there is a base-level of technological and governmental competence on the planet to support this.

But why should the station be limited in what equipment it can supply? While I can concede that destructive equipment (lasers, missiles, bombs, etc) should have a modicum of control over who can purchase them, why are fuel scoops limited to TL6+ systems? Why are docking computers limited to TL10+ systems? The amount of technology on display just by having a Coriolis station in orbit would seem to indicate that all these standard equipment items should be available everywhere. Even if they aren't being produced locally, shouldn't they still be available at a premium driven by demand and the distance from the supplier? Surely there would be a market for getting your ship outfitted with standard kit, meaning there would be equipment deliveries on a regular basis.

If equipment isn't available, then the reason is not the TL of the planet. Now we're into the policy and governance side of things. And it's here that I think much of the handwavium takes place.

From a gameplay perspective, the system makes sense: the idea is to make the game more challenging by limiting where you can purchase some equipment. That means you need to travel, which means NPC interactions, battles, etc. ie. it makes you engage with the game. But logically it's a little harder to explain.

Not sure if I have an answer to any of this. Coming up with a logical explanation for it all would be a handy reference for future players and OXP devs. Retroactively applying it to existing OXPs would be challenging.

Maybe it would make more sense to take Redspear's solution and adapt it: Weapon Laws. Decide on a minimum TL which the Orbital Station enjoys and supports. It need not be the TL required to manufacture the orbital station, but does need to be able to maintain it. Say a TL of 9 or 10 (if we use Disembodied's analysis).

Restrictions on sales of technology can then be based on at least 3 factors:

1) The inability of the local system to supply TL expertise, so everything must be imported or made by immigrants/eccentrics with the needed skills and equipment.
2) Import restrictions imposed by the system government (not wishing for overthrow by rebels armed with lethal Docking Computers).
3) Import restrictions imposed by GalCop (not wishing to contaminate Maesin's delightful and idyllic TL1 culture with degenerate Maintenance Overhauls or decadent Advanced Navigational Arrays).

I can see the argument not to twiddle with the Vanilla game TL constraints. However something more logical will be OXP-able (especially with Redspear blazing the way). But goodness, all the time and energy I put into linking space-ship manufacturers to the wiki pages of TL6 systems! Done for reasons of linking in lore, but it did seem rather odd at the time...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:59 pm

By "the difference between planet and orbital" I purely meant the TL difference. Apologies!

None needed. Sorry if I came across as corrective, I was just trying to be be specific: the word 'planet' is equally serviceable for me.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:39 am

But why should the station be limited in what equipment it can supply?

Perhaps because it's not just about posessing the equipment but also understaning how to integrate/install it with regards to multiple ship interfaces, or even to repair it. IIRC the ECM was supposed to be based on captured Thargoid tech (suggesting high tech requirements) and yet it is available at most low tech worlds. Maybe the reason is as simple as it being both in demand and easy to install.

phkb wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:34 am

If equipment isn't available, then the reason is not the TL of the planet.

Well, not necessarily but then it's the definition of 'available' as well as of 'tech level' that I've tried to consider above.

phkb wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:34 am

From a gameplay perspective, the system makes sense: the idea is to make the game more challenging by limiting where you can purchase some equipment.

Agreed, and that's why it came into being. By complicating it (and I know that's not necessarily what's being suggested) we risk reducing its utility. I've gone on at some length before about what happened with regards to government type so I'll spare everyone on this occassion...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:39 am

Maybe it would make more sense to take Redspear's solution and adapt it: Weapon Laws

What I did there was to complicate it with regards to weapons and defensive systems (rather than regards to all tech) by incoprporating government restrictions. I think it's important to realise here that tech level can also relate to repair options at a given facility and so by that definition alone it would be a reliably useful consideration for a pilot's planned route (no repair in elite, just replace).

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:39 am

It need not be the TL required to manufacture the orbital station, but does need to be able to maintain it.

In line with my thinking.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:39 am

I can see the argument not to twiddle with the Vanilla game TL constraints. However something more logical will be OXP-able (especially with Redspear blazing the way).

Well the thing about logic is that it runs according to what is known/understood. If all we truly know is the 'tech level' then in trying to understand it we can conjure up all kinds of alternate realities.

Weapon Laws for example assumed that governments would restrict weapon sales but if such strictures were found to make little difference to a systems safety (due perhaps to pirates arriving from elsewhere) then it might even make more sense for such laws to be scrapped and that government to make as much money from sales as it can in order to fund a more effective police force. So logically speaking, I think one could argue either way.

My explanation was based on a particular logic but my motivation was based on fun; explicitly to both motivate and reward travel to more dangerous systems.

Redspear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:13 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:59 pm

I am skipping some of your discussion.

The tech level of a system would depict how far advanced that civilization is compared to some scale.
So would that level not advance through time (and be based on the government, politics, neighboured planets and available trade)?

So if a world was colonized later, it would probably start of being an agricultural or mining world, and later (maybe when the natural resources are depleting) switch to higher level goods to still stay competetive?

hiran wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:01 pm

The tech level of a system would depict how far advanced that civilization is compared to some scale.

Of course. And as Disembodied explains, the scale was originally created in Traveller (and has presumably been modified in the four decades since - see his link to the Traveller wiki).

So would that level not advance through time (and be based on the government, politics, neighboured planets and available trade)?

So if a world was colonized later, it would probably start off being an agricultural or mining world, and later (maybe when the natural resources are depleting) switch to higher level goods to still stay competitive?

It might. OR it might commence with the higher level goods, if for example the original colonists were all fanatical computer programmers who had no idea how to grow crops or run factories!

But yes, there is no reason why the TLs have to be set in stone... Especially since we can modify the planet descriptions...

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:25 pm

hiran wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:01 pm

The tech level of a system would depict how far advanced that civilization is compared to some scale.

Of course...

Must it?

Do the specifications of my computer set up reflect my tech level or my income or both? What if I don't have a computer, or a phone? Or a car?...

I'm only an individual, not truly representative of the society in which I live but income alone makes a huge difference to the availability of tech I think and if you want to sell the good stuff then you must be able to afford to have it in stock, right?

Maybe GalCop as a whole is TL 15 but the engineering standard and facilities vary enormously from system to system. If a TL 15 planet is the equivalent of a space navy 'dry dock' then maybe TL 1 is just a few guys with a welder. They might know how all your tech works but, coriolis station or not, maybe they just don't have the reserves of either the man/woman/lobster/frog/etc. power or equipment beyond servicing their own police force.

Generally in oolite, the safer the system, the higher the tech level. Perhaps less stress on the local police force reduces stress on equipment reserves and safer systems also attract more experienced engineers.

So tech level does represent the maximum tech that the player has access to (we know that) but must we assume that it is also the maximum tech that the station has access to for its own purposes? I would argue against.

Redspear wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:28 pm

Maybe GalCop as a whole is TL 15 but the engineering standard and facilities vary enormously from system to system. If a TL 15 planet is the equivalent of a space navy 'dry dock' then maybe TL 1 is just a few guys with a welder. They might know how all your tech works but, coriolis station or not, maybe they just don't have the reserves of either the man/woman/lobster/frog/etc. power or equipment beyond servicing their own police force.

Part of this comes down to our understanding of who is responsible for the orbiting Coriolis station. Is it GalCop, and if so, are they limited to only employing local residents on ship services? An example of this is Mr Gimlet, who is not a native of Lave, yet is the Dock Master on the Lave Coriolis. Or is the GalCop logo more of a licensing arrangement, like a franchise, where GalCop provide the base equipment, but everything else is local. If the former, then the TL on the station has no direct relationship with the TL of the planet. Any difference is one of policy, not of ability. If the latter, then, yes, the TL of the station will match the TL of the planet (or thereabouts).

Is Mr Gimlet canon?

Cody wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:27 am

Is Mr Gimlet canon?

well, we’re shipping the “Advice for new commanders” PDF with the game, so… maybe!

phkb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:43 am

... we’re shipping the “Advice for new commanders” PDF with the game...

So we are! I'd not noticed that. Hmm...

phkb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:10 am

An example of this is Mr Gimlet, who is not a native of Lave, yet is the Dock Master on the Lave Coriolis.

It's always possible that Mr Gimlet is a native of Lave - just not a member of the majority species. A planet is a large place, and even the smallest backwater will not be as monolithically monocultural as it might appear on the F7 screen.