(WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by montana05 »

Nite Owl wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:06 pm
Then you also have the situation of when the Main Station is taken over by a Non GalCop faction what happens to the other stations in the system? Do they remain with their GalCop affiliation or do they go Rogue as well? Can one of these Extra Stations be taken over by some other faction while the Main Station remains with GalCop?
In my personal opinion, any extra stations should be neutral, chaotic or straight pirate, a GalCop station (except the main) doesn't feel right.
Cody wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:59 am
How would aegis raiders fit into such a system?
A system controlled by criminal syndicates ? I believe they would fit perfect.

Cholmondely's idea of occasionally Galactic Navy expeditions to clean out the systems a bit sounds also tempting.
Scars remind us where we've been. They don't have to dictate where we're going.
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cody »

montana05 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:14 am
Cody wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:59 am
How would aegis raiders fit into such a system?
A system controlled by criminal syndicates ? I believe they would fit perfect.
I ain't so sure. Their raison d'être is sticking it to the man, so they may be redundant.
On the other hand, aegis botherers might find themselves in trouble!
I would advise stilts for the quagmires, and camels for the snowy hills
And any survivors, their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way!
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by montana05 »

Cody wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:34 am
montana05 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:14 am
Cody wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:59 am
How would aegis raiders fit into such a system?
A system controlled by criminal syndicates ? I believe they would fit perfect.
I ain't so sure. Their raison d'être is sticking it to the man, so they may be redundant.
On the other hand, aegis botherers might find themselves in trouble!
aegis raiders instead of police interceptors as station defenders, I think I saw an example of that before. However, if the main station is gone at which location all that GalCop vipers actually are stationed ?
Scars remind us where we've been. They don't have to dictate where we're going.
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cholmondely »

Nite Owl wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:06 pm
Just took a quick look at the Market Scripts for Stations for Extra Planets and Super Hubs for Extra Planets. Both of these scripts are based off of the prices and commodity lists at the Main Station with a varying multiple based on their distance from the Main Station. So if you alter the prices and/or change the commodities at the Main Station would you then also be altering the prices and commodities at these stations, of which there can be many? Then you also have the situation of when the Main Station is taken over by a Non GalCop faction what happens to the other stations in the system? Do they remain with their GalCop affiliation or do they go Rogue as well? Can one of these Extra Stations be taken over by some other faction while the Main Station remains with GalCop?

Lots of possibilities within the context of just these two other OXZs but few outcomes if you want it to keep it "contained". Like my signature always says "Good Night and Good Luck".
But will those extra stations exist at anarchies? Who would pay for them? Who would protect them from pirates? Would there be stations at extra planets? Would they not just rely on people landing on the planet?

Surely at anarchies there would just be the one cheapest possible GalCop station with a minimal police force. And, if there is a Galactic Navy with a bit more dosh, then a sentinel station too, if the anarchy was at a strategic point which warranted the expense.
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cody »

Cholmondely wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:06 pm
... if the anarchy was at a strategic point which warranted the expense.
Chokepoints (or gateway systems), such as Bizaar and Beritere, would likely be contested.
I would advise stilts for the quagmires, and camels for the snowy hills
And any survivors, their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way!
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cholmondely »

Just mulling over the basic premise of pirates taking over the main orbital stations at anarchies.

I can see two different concerns.

1) Making it realistic

2) Phkb's concerns about providing a path for piratical players



Making it realistic.

If pirate gangs (one presumes it will be gangs, not individuals - and that they would have had supporters on the inside of the station) take over the station, then I can envisage 3 different scenarios depending on oxp choices.

a) Vanilla game-ish (no Anarchies oxp, no Galactic Navy oxp)
no Anarchies oxp - so no sentinel stations to provide a base in-system for GalCop
no Galactic Navy oxp - so no strong GalCop forces to retake the Main Orbital station

•The station would probably remain piratical (unless the GalCoppers on board were able to lead a successful counter-revolt - there would be little support from down planet) - and there would probably be fights between the different pirate gangs for control (eg. Italy's Mafia, N'drangheta & Camorra).

How might this manifest in-game?

- Different gangs controlling different parts of the station? Shipyards in one gangland, ship's chandlery in another? Thus problems with outfitting ships if one is not affiliated to the correct gang. Or maybe the site is currently a battleground and not even operational?

- What would be the effect on the 8/F8 commodity market prices? Different gangs would presumably provide some market competition in eg. drugs. But would this affect the massive quantities selling through the market?
- Would there be massive mark-ups compared to the prices downplanet (unless, again, one was a member of the gang controlling the commodities marketplace? - but even then, if a different gang controlled the shipyards and extracted their toll...)?

•Effect on the rest of the solar system?

- No longer a base for GalCop's ships - who now have to come in from out-system.
- So one would expect pirate guards at the Witchpoint buoy to keep them out.
- Who would then extract a toll from legal visitors (5TC for your entrance visa!)

- What about Rock Hermits? Would they have permanent "protectors" - or just visiting protectors collecting their tithes? They might well have supply problems in the 3/F3 chandlery, as well as price hikes for harder-to-get food, liquors & machinery

- Rock Hermit pirate coves would presumably also belong to one gang or another


2) Anarchies oxp
This can add either a GalCop Sentinel station or a Renegade station to an anarchy system. Also, Renegade Vipers.

- One might expect that there would be a smaller chance of a GalCop Sentinel station still being GalCop if the main orbital was taken out.

- A GalCop sentinel station would presumably prevent the pirates from establishing excisemen at the Witchpoint buoy, and either control it themselves, or cause it to be a constant battleground

- A Renegade station would help enforce the situation outlined for the Vanilla-ish scenario above

- And one would expect more Renegade Vipers


3) Galactic Navy oxp (GN)
This adds a large Navy which fights pirates - and also Rogue Frigates

One would expect more Rogue Frigates (but ruling the roost) in pirate controlled anarchies.

But one would also expect the GN to muscle in and eventually regain the system from the pirates. A battle royal! Lots of fun news items in GNN!
(Commander Wrogers gallantly led the victorious assault on the rebel-held orbital, marmalising thirteen pirate craft, and personally planting the glorious banner of the Holy Jens, Co-ordinator of the Celestial Codes of Creation in the abdominal cavity of the beastly batrachian bully, Xiibli Nbilibli, reclaimed the station for civilisation. Sotiqu is now firmly back home in the cradle of Galcop's tender care.)


3a) Behemoth oxp
Without GN, these really only appear in Interstellar space, like the generation ships. But GalCop might well send one or two to pirate-ridden systems to retake the orbitals. See above!


4) Vanilla game Backdrop (ie Oolite.space introduction about everything falling to pieces)

The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.


One would expect the situation to get worse as time goes on. More anarchies falling to piratical control. Fewer Behemoths/GN sorties to retake them.

And, eventually, more attacks on partially undefended states (I'm thinking particularly of multi-govs which are already at loggerheads - or other states in civil war).

More GNN newsflashes reporting the deterioration. And how about GNN/BGS F6 screen updates showing the deterioration?

Perhaps as the player moves through the Galaxies, this could be implemented for each new Galaxy, with each in a worse situation than that preceding?



Path for "wannabe" pirates

a) Freelance pirate career?
-- Issues of supply/maintenance/fencing goods
-- How to steal abandoned/derelict ships


b) Member of a piratical band career?
-- Joining the band
-- How to manage joining pirate raids against other systems?
-- Where is the base for managing supplies?
-- Are they pirates? Or freedom fighters?
-- How to integrate with GN's Rebel Frigates/Anarchies' Renegade Vipers
- How to manage relations with other pirates?


c) Captured main orbital stations/sentinel stations
-- Does GalCop have the strength to retake them (Is Galactic Navy OXP loaded)? If so, they will not work as a good solution, easing the career. Ditto if GalCop are strong enough to start rooting out pirate bases. The bases might need to be either on the planet surface or in interstellar space.


d) Pirate Coves
-- These should give normal prices to members of the occupying pirate gang. And to high kill-score independent outlaws.



Looking at the realities, I would presume that to get ship equipment/fence goods for a good-ish price as a pirate, that the player either needs to maintain a clean reputation (so as to use regular GalCop cheap facilities) or belong to a pirate gang.
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Redspear »

Only skimmed over this quickly, so apologies if I've missed anything relevant.

One consideration might be:
Once a station is no longer in GalCop hands, what can it no longer supply?

The first post suggests market alterations and viper alternatives (both sensible I think).

Could it provide maintenance? (likely yes)
How about equipment? (maybe)
Ships for sale? (almost certainly, likely stolen)
Contracts on offer? (maybe not the bulk ones)
Shuttles to the planet? (seems risky)

Equipment but no maintenance might be fun. Perhaps you can buy salvaged equipment, often damaged, but they don't always have the personnel or delicate parts to repair them (or repair is extra costly).

I understand that the goal is to provide for the pirate player rather than to penalise them but there could be other boons such as 'new' equipment e.g.
  • Smuggler's Hold - adapt player's large cargo bay extension to be hidden from scanning upon docking at or leaving from the station.
  • Record Scrambler - increases decay rate of criminal record
  • Police Jammer - if witnessess to player's indiscretions are destroyed (incl. escape pods and police) then no change to legal record
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2023 12:58 pm
Only skimmed over this quickly, so apologies if I've missed anything relevant.

One consideration might be:
Once a station is no longer in GalCop hands, what can it no longer supply?

The first post suggests market alterations and viper alternatives (both sensible I think).

Could it provide maintenance? (likely yes)
How about equipment? (maybe)
Ships for sale? (almost certainly, likely stolen)
Contracts on offer? (maybe not the bulk ones)
Shuttles to the planet? (seems risky)

Equipment but no maintenance might be fun. Perhaps you can buy salvaged equipment, often damaged, but they don't always have the personnel or delicate parts to repair them (or repair is extra costly).

I understand that the goal is to provide for the pirate player rather than to penalise them but there could be other boons such as 'new' equipment e.g.
  • Smuggler's Hold - adapt player's large cargo bay extension to be hidden from scanning upon docking at or leaving from the station.
  • Record Scrambler - increases decay rate of criminal record
  • Police Jammer - if witnessess to player's indiscretions are destroyed (incl. escape pods and police) then no change to legal record
This all makes good sense to me!
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Redspear »

phkb wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:18 am
I'm playing around with an idea on how to make an offender/fugitive career slightly more sustainable...
phkb wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:18 am
The main thing I'd like to do is keep this one as contained as possible (rather than doing my normal thing of having it grow like topsy). Making an offender/fugitive career path sustainable will require more than one change, but this could be one aspect.

Let me know what you think.
Rather than changing the station, have you considered changing the police?

In anarchy systems they're stretched to say the least. So rather than chase down any fugitive maybe they're only going to intervene when crimes are in progress.

Maybe they've been bought off, maybe they just don't have the time or resources to chase up crimes committed outside their jurisdiction.

Being fined at the station? They need all the trade and traffic they can get, so the clientele may be 'pirate scum' but they're docking to pay like everyone else then maybe they have no use for such forms of discouragement.

Might need a separate AI for anarchy police (effectively new rules of engagement) but that way there's a path for the fugitive offender player without penalising the clean trader who struggled all the way through to the station.

One change, big difference but with few (obvious) side effects.
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by phkb »

Thanks for the response, Redspear. I'll come back to that in a future post.

General question, though: in the event that the main station has been overthrown by anarchists, what should happen to any other GalCop aligned station in the system?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Redspear »

phkb wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2023 2:53 am
in the event that the main station has been overthrown by anarchists, what should happen to any other GalCop aligned station in the system?
Presumably their goal would be to retake the main station; their fear to be taken themselves.
  • Some ideas with that in mind
    • Stricter docking protocol
    • General military readiness
    • More, shorter ranged patrols
    • No sale of missiles or mines
    • Reduced sale of milarty/defensive hardware
    • Mission offers re anti-anarchist operations
This might appear to be a matter of semantics but aren't anarchy systems already run by anarchists?
That being the case (?) presumably the main station hasn't been overthrown so much as the managerment has been streamlined.
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Switeck »

Redspear wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2023 1:46 pm
  • Stricter docking protocol
  • General military readiness
  • More, shorter ranged patrols
  • No sale of missiles or mines
  • Reduced sale of military/defensive hardware
The biggest issue is what to do with the poor industry Anarchies up to tech level 9.

Normally at a main station of that TL, there'd be a LOT of goodies for sale...
But I like the idea of only fuel for sale at double normal costs at least at lower TL Anarchies...to encourage leaving. :P

And maybe no ships for sale (Shipyard market) either!
Last edited by Switeck on Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2023 1:46 pm
This might appear to be a matter of semantics but aren't anarchy systems already run by anarchists?
That being the case (?) presumably the main station hasn't been overthrown so much as the management has been streamlined.
There is a fair amount on this in the lore - the best treatment is probably Ganelon's 8 chapter Carver's Anarchy

See especially parts 4, 5 & 7

The understanding which ML and I developed for LitF (based on much of the material here in the BB and the wiki) was that anarchies give no money to GalCop for maintenance of the Main Orbital Station and thus have no presence on it/say in how it is run. Everything on station is done by GalCop and paid for by GalCop. And hence the feeble viper patrols - and hence the presence of pirates - and hence the ghastly reputation the Anarchies have.

Now, this does leave one or two conundra regarding OXPs.

Sentinel stations are obviously paid for by GalCop/Galactic Navy (if you have it loaded).

Ditto for Mining Outposts (and thus the rationale for their existence - safer mining and more revenues for GalCop)

Smugglers, however, features trade embargoes on Anarchic Orbitals. Presumably this is due to enforcement of GalCop regulation GCRS#73846290b which mandates replication of trade embargoes decreed by inexistent down-planet governments on the station above. Or perhaps the GalCop stationmaster just decided what seemed best for preventing the situation downplanet degenerating further?
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:56 pm
There is a fair amount on this in the lore
There is a tonne of lore in oolite but very little canon.

Cholmondely wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:56 pm
Now, this does leave one or two conundra regarding OXPs
And OXPs are (I would suggest) the reason why.

When they contradict the original source material (elite manual) then I think they could at best be described as 'optional' in terms of lore.
Nothing wrong with that of course until they start overruling each other.
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Killer Wolf »

Redspear wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2023 1:46 pm
This might appear to be a matter of semantics but aren't anarchy systems already run by anarchists?
seems a lot of people are taking the term "Anarchy" to mean it actually involves some anti-government terrorist group. Far as my understanding, the term literally just means the system is in a state of anarchy. it's pretty lawless, like the frontier towns of the old West, Deadwood and the like. No organised group in controlling it, it's just rife w/ pirates and undesireables and a very dangerous place to try and make a living.
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