Cargo Conditions

[Redspear]

Suppose that a cargo bay must be fitted to a particular standard in order to ship goods through witchspace.
Suppose further that this standard varied according to goods being shipped.


Basic: Alloys, Minerals, Alien Items, Gold, Platinum, Gem Stones (all either found as space debris or otherwise unreactive)

Functional: Food (the fancy stuff would count as 'luxuries'), Radioactives

Trader: Firearms, Textiles

Freighter: Luxuries, Slaves

Specialist: Machinery. Liquor/Wines

Advanced: Computers, Furs, Narcotics


If these cargo hold upgrades were suitably priced (and some as standard for smaller vessels) then this could achieve two things.

• More likely to buy the various goods at some stage during your trading career
• More gradual upgrade progression for the larger cargo holds (including the mkIII) due to slowed profit progression

The obvious way to achieve #2 might be to simply reprice the equipment items but this is complicated by both repair costs and if you're starting with an adder then progression is likely slow enough already.

I imagine it working in a way that tests your hold each time you jump - if it's not suitable then relevant goods are converted into (perhaps) minerals if industrial or biowaste (new very low value commodity) if agricultural.

So before I make this thing I'd like to court advice on potential pricing and especially on the goods themselves. Does my proposed progression above include both an industrial and an agricultural commodity in each bracket? Do the higher brackets always provide the higher profit margins?

Like most traders, I know quite well the profit margins for computers and furs but know very little regarding some of the others.
Advice gratefully recieved.

[cbr]

So you want to make the cargoholds with different (buyable) levels with each level you gain more options to buy certain goods?
And the purpose is to make it harder to earn credits?

hmmm.

variants.

a]
Each trader has a cargohold but no shipping containers.
You can buy shipping containers with different volumes (1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512 etc) pricing is also non-liniair,
so you are still able to buy a shipping container with volume 4 and 4 computers on your adder to make that one lucky run.
But the higher volume containers are accordingly priced.
Containers can be broken or go bad.

b]
You have to buy licences.
These can be for certains goods or
these can be for volumes of goods.
Certain goods cost more
larger volums cost more

c]
Combination of both


(Perhaps not in EASY mode)

[Redspear]

So you want to make the cargoholds with different (buyable) levels with each level you gain more options to buy certain goods?

Yes.

And the purpose is to make it harder to earn credits?

Nearly...

As you may already understand, based on the rest of your reply, the purpose is to make the profit to jump ratio climb less steeply for the larger capacity traders.

The Adder pilot for example currently has a hard enough time as it is and requires no such strictures, whilst the mk III pilot sees a rather steep increase in profit:jump to an extent that doesn't suit the equipment prices. Can't upgrade for several jumps and then you can upgrade nearly every other jump. You can become almost 'iron assed' soon after your first upgrade. I consider this to be a design issue - throw in different cargo capacities and it is no longer as simple as changing the pricing (even if you also change the starting ship).

Of your variant ideas...

a] sounds similar to the large cargo bay idea, with admittedly better rationalisation and expandability

b] I've thought about licences but find them rather unsatisfactory on a personal level. This is also why I rejected 'refridgeration units' and 'stabiliser gear' as they don't always make sense when applied across the range of goods. I currently prefer witch space travel as the restrictive factor as who knows what effects that might have?

c] could easily get too complicated I think, or at least more complicated than I would like

Thanks for your ideas

[Disembodied]

It's an interesting idea … what would happen though if you scooped a cargo item you didn't have the correct bay for?

Would the upgrades apply to the entire hold, or could you outfit your cargo hold in parts? E.g. a Cobra III starts with 20-tonne Basic capacity, but the player can buy (say) 5 tonnes "Functional" capacity, allowing then to carry up to 5TCs of food or radioactives, and another 5 tonnes "climate controlled" capacity, allowing them to carry up to 5TCs of slaves or luxuries, and so on.

[Redspear]

what would happen though if you scooped a cargo item you didn't have the correct bay for?

My methodolgy is likely limited by my programming skill but I'm thinking the simpler the better in most regards.

• So, two possible scenarios with a basic hold to explain my thinking:
  
  1) Upon launching from the station, you scoop some pods floating around and then make your jump to a new system
  2) Whilst heading to the station you come across some pods and scoop them up before continuing on your way

I scenario 1, you would find upon arriving at your new system that the cargo pods you scooped in the prior system have been converted to either biowaste if organic or to alloys/minerals (whichever is cheaper) if inorganic. It is the jump that does the damage and the hold that is tested to see if it can resist it.

In scenario 2 however, you could sell those scooped goods unchanged (and therefore at full value) as they haven't been subject to an intersystem jump since you scooped them.

So you can buy anything, sell anything, scoop anything, you just can't jump with anything... and expect it to survive intact.

I'm imagining colour coded goods on the trading screen - so as to make it easier to know which goods you can ship safely.

Would the upgrades apply to the entire hold, or could you outfit your cargo hold in parts?

Initially at least, to the entire hold. The idea of hold subsections is interesting but unnecessarily complicated in order to achieve my aim for this proposed oxp. I wouldn't rule it out though as it could make scooped goods more valuable (with more options of where to sell small quanties of a high value commodity).

[Cholmondely]

It's an interesting idea … what would happen though if you scooped a cargo item you didn't have the correct bay for?

Would the upgrades apply to the entire hold, or could you outfit your cargo hold in parts? E.g. a Cobra III starts with 20-tonne Basic capacity, but the player can buy (say) 5 tonnes "Functional" capacity, allowing then to carry up to 5TCs of food or radioactives, and another 5 tonnes "climate controlled" capacity, allowing them to carry up to 5TCs of slaves or luxuries, and so on.

Would you need crew to ensure that the scooped items ended up in the appropriate bay?

And how would this affect piracy?

Would they still offer the dump cargo option? If they did, would they mostly then go on and blast you anyways in the hope of getting more cargo which might fit their holds?

And what are the chances of their scooping your rescue pod and selling you as a slave?


But my understanding of the current system is that the cargo pods are themselves modified - eg Slave containers - which contain whatever is needed to keep their contents alive without leaching off the ship's life support mechanism. They presumably need a power source, but have a backup just in case.

Slaves are measured by the tonne in galactic trading. This may seem a little strange, but it includes the cryogenic suspensions system necessary to keep them alive during space travel (The Space Traders Flight Training Manual p38)

Montana05's Slave container

[Redspear]

But my understanding of the current system is that the cargo pods are themselves modified - eg Slave containers - which contain whatever is needed to keep their contents alive without leaching off the ship's life support mechanism. They presumably need a power source, but have a backup just in case.

Slaves are measured by the tonne in galactic trading. This may seem a little strange, but it includes the cryogenic suspensions system necessary to keep them alive during space travel (The Space Traders Flight Training Manual p38)

Yes, I recalled that very example which, at least superficially, appears to be contrary to my idea as presented in this thread.

So I imagined it as wirchspace travel specifically rather than space travel generally. My explanatory example re Disembodied's question should (hopefully) explain how it could work in a simple manner.

[Cholmondely]

But my understanding of the current system is that the cargo pods are themselves modified - eg Slave containers - which contain whatever is needed to keep their contents alive without leaching off the ship's life support mechanism. They presumably need a power source, but have a backup just in case.

Slaves are measured by the tonne in galactic trading. This may seem a little strange, but it includes the cryogenic suspensions system necessary to keep them alive during space travel (The Space Traders Flight Training Manual p38)

Yes, I recalled that very example which, at least superficially, appears to be contrary to my idea as presented in this thread.

So I imagined it as witchspace travel specifically rather than space travel generally. My explanatory example re Disembodied's question should (hopefully) explain how it could work in a simple manner.

Coming up with an idea/.oxp which contradicts the Lore is not exactly a "sin"... and it is not even obvious that it is a "contradiction"...

[Redspear]

Coming up with an idea/.oxp which contradicts the Lore is not exactly a "sin"... and it is not even obvious that it is a "contradiction"...

...nor necessarily is it one.

I quite agree however.

[Redspear]

If these cargo hold upgrades were suitably priced (and some as standard for smaller vessels) then this could achieve two things.

More likely to buy the various goods at some stage during your trading career
More gradual upgrade progression for the larger cargo holds (including the mkIII) due to slowed profit progression

Coming back to this post... post  Demand Driven Economy, only the second one is 'needed' (if at all).

a]
Each trader has a cargohold but no shipping containers.

With the cargo types distinction removed, it becomes about volume and this is perhaps the most obvious and maybe even best way to achieve the remaining goal.

• A few basic adjustments:
  • start with one container
  • capacity is (max) 5TC, 20 for pythons & boas, 100 for the anaconda
  • each priced at same value as large cargo bay

Once the player ship has all the containers it can carry then it might seem irrelevant if they can't be damaged but that misses the point I think.

The goal (again) is to stop the player just trading until they can fill their hold a few times and then they go from having almost no equipment to almost all of it very quickly.

With a few 400TC drops along the way, each hard earned upgrade (on account of a smaller available hold) encourages the player to spend on a few other upgrades along the way.

Rather than just wait a few more trips and hit a profit ceiling, that strategy would become a lot more time consuming and it may be wiser to invest in a few other pieces of kit first. Therefore a more even paced upgrading of the player ship.

I could price them progressively but that seems both unrealistic and perhaps unnecessarily harsh.

[Cholmondely]

I've yet to peruse your most recent, but regarding Disembodied's point above about scooping the "wrong" cargo, there seem to be a number of possibilities.

Stuff like food might deteriorate over time if in the wrong hold, thus loosing value. Or the pod might get stuck in the scoop/sorting mechanism, blocking further scooping.

Computers/Machinery turning into alloys during a jump does strike me as a bit far-fetched. Why don't I turn into biowaste myself?

[Cholmondely]

The goal (again) is to stop the player just trading until they can fill their hold a few times and then they go from having almost no equipment to almost all of it very quickly.

First, it is not so simple. One has to run the gauntlet of the pirates to make the better profits. And it takes time.

Also, as a number of people have remarked over the years, it seems peculiar to start off owning a 150,000 ship lacking such basic equipment as Docking aids, STE, ASC, Fuel Scoops, etc.


I wonder to what extent this is due to the early improvements made to classic Elite (Archimedes etc.) and a wish to retain elements of the original BBC version?

[Wildeblood]

Suppose that a cargo bay must be fitted to a particular standard in order to ship goods through witchspace.
Suppose further that this standard varied according to goods being shipped.

It seems to me, you might be trying to re-invent the passenger cabin for other purposes. If so, you might consider starting with the passenger cabin, rather than the generic cargo-pod. As I understood it, a cargo pod is 100% analogous to contemporary shipping containers: a definition of exact dimensions, crush strength, and electrical power requirements, and disinterested as to contents.

On the other hand, having more than one type of passenger cabin makes sense in a ooniverse supposedly populated with more than one species. And, an automatically re-configurable, multi-species passenger cabin would obviously be more expensive than a single-species version. And, the ability to pack five slaves - standing room only - into a passenger cabin would be handy.

[Wildeblood]

Computers/Machinery turning into alloys during a jump does strike me as a bit far-fetched.

Not so far-fetched; my little boxen, that runs Oolite at a blistering 7 FPS, is going to transmute into e-waste in October, if Microsoft's propaganda is to be believed. (Since I can't update it to Windows 11, I've wondered if some form of Linux intervention might be appropriate.)

[MrFlibble]

Not so far-fetched; my little boxen, that runs Oolite at a blistering 7 FPS, is going to transmute into e-waste in October, if Microsoft's propaganda is to be believed. (Since I can't update it to Windows 11, I've wondered if some form of Linux intervention might be appropriate.)

Welcome to the light side

For a fluffy easy way in, I'd suggest LinuxMint, which I've been using for most of my boxen for a little over a decade. I tend to opt for the Xfce flavour, as it wastes less resources on over-the-top user interface fluff, whilst still being quite user friendly. This assumes it's a 64 bit CPU.. else there's the LMDE flavour, which can work on older 32 bit hardware (Oolite is not currently being built for 32 bit though!).

You can burn it to a stick or DVD to try it out. If you like it, you can shrink your windows partition (from inside windows) and install it alongside for a dual boot setup. This assumes your drive is partitioned with GPT, rather than msdos, allowing more than four primary partitions. Another solution is to add an HDD or SSD just for Linux.

If you need a hand, I'm standing by. It would please me to help you aboard. If you DM me what make/model PC it is, and how much RAM it has, I should be able to tell you quite swiftly what lies ahead, and steer you toward simplest happy outcome.

Or, grab another box, and do "linux from scratch" to REALLY learn the ropes