Oolite Bulletins

Please consider the following sentence:-

Thunderbird 2 clipping Nelson's hat and spinning down a London avenue curiously free of vehicles and pulling into a parallel parking position (a la Top Gear Stig or Mr Incredible mobile home style), where only a little way away Penelope and Parker were stuck in traffic, might be hard to swallow, but as Smiv says was a bit of fun

Let's remove the parenthetical matter for clarity:-

Thunderbird 2 clipping Nelson's hat and spinning down a London avenue curiously free of vehicles and pulling into a parallel parking position, where only a little way away Penelope and Parker were stuck in traffic, might be hard to swallow...

The author has informed us that his intention was to contrast the different traffic conditions at two proximate locations, so knowing that, we are able to remove more irrelevant words and get to the matter at hand:-

...a London avenue curiously free of vehicles, where only a little way away Penelope and Parker were stuck in traffic...

At issue is the use of the word "where" in the above quoted sentence.

Which word best expresses a simultaneity of spatial proximity and temporal coincidence as a contrast?
Option 1:

Thunderbird 2 clipping Nelson's hat and spinning down a London avenue curiously free of vehicles and pulling into a parallel parking position, where only a little way away Penelope and Parker were stuck in traffic, might be hard to swallow...

Option 2:

Thunderbird 2 clipping Nelson's hat and spinning down a London avenue curiously free of vehicles and pulling into a parallel parking position, when only a little way away Penelope and Parker were stuck in traffic, might be hard to swallow...

Option 3:

Thunderbird 2 clipping Nelson's hat and spinning down a London avenue curiously free of vehicles and pulling into a parallel parking position, while only a little way away Penelope and Parker were stuck in traffic, might be hard to swallow...

Option 4:

Thunderbird 2 clipping Nelson's hat and spinning down a London avenue curiously free of vehicles and pulling into a parallel parking position, whereas only a little way away Penelope and Parker were stuck in traffic, might be hard to swallow...

Option 5:

Thunderbird 2 clipping Nelson's hat and spinning down a London avenue curiously free of vehicles and pulling into a parallel parking position, whilst only a little way away Penelope and Parker were stuck in traffic, might be hard to swallow...

Which word best expresses a simultaneity of spatial proximity and temporal coincidence as a contrast?
- where
- when
- while
- whereas
- another word, yet to be considered.

P.S. Lest there be any doubt, this post and poll are in no way intended to be facetious. I've been fascinated by the use of the W-words ever since I first learnt them in grade 1.

Addendum: added "whilst" as option.

Ok, I'm in

I'd still say "where", but could've said "whereas".

Cutting down the sentence to it's bare essentials and re-looking at it, I probably wouldn't have said "little way away" because it's too colloquial. Perhaps I should have said "few streets away"


edit: yay, 100% for me

My dislike of "where" here stems from its use in sentences like, "Y is true where x is less than 5," wherein I think it connotes some kind of entailment or conditionality rather than simultaneity or juxtaposition.

I'd expect to see "while" in print, and I'd dislike it for the same reason.

I think "whereas" is most correct, but who says or writes "whereas" in conversational English?

Wildeblood wrote:

...but who says or writes "whereas" in conversational English?

Me!
I also use hitherto, albeit and nonetheless. I'm a bit funny like that.

My gut was shouting to go for "while", albeit sounding too engreek, I voted for "when" and opened a ticket to my sis; she earns her leaving by teaching English and I like playing with her mind every now and then. Hitherto she hasn't answered. Nonetheless I am sure she will get back with some feedback pretty soon.


@Smivs:

Wildeblood wrote:

I think "whereas" is most correct, but who says or writes "whereas" in conversational English?

I voted for whereas, and would use it in written english. When speaking english, I'm generally drunk and would stick to "but".

Hmm...

My first thought reading the sentence was, 'whilst', which is essentially the same as 'while' I suppose...

'Whereas', conveys contrast more than the other options I think (which appears to have been desirable on the part of it's author).
'Where', on the other hand, lacks contrast but that could also be intentional, making the point that the comparison is with somewhere more or less in the same place.
'When' doesn't seem to read right to me in this sentence, so I'm not sure how I'd use that.

So where or whereas for me, depending on exactly how the author wished to make the point.

Edit: you asked for temporal as well as spatial, so that would appear to make whereas the better choice for me...

Edit #2 (I am indecisive today )
Location is specified in the original sentence so that the spatial relation is made clear.
The temporal relationship however, remains vague in the absence of a qualifier.
When and while, fill this role better than where and whereas, while being the broader of the two...

So after all of that I'm right back to where I started

Er, 'whilst,' please

Wildeblood wrote:

I think "whereas" is most correct, but who says or writes "whereas" in conversational English?

Non-native speakers. We learn from books, we speak like books (or we try to, without even knowing it).

Damn, I had a good reply going and then I accidentally hit the 'go back' button on my mouse

Suffice to say though

Wildeblood wrote:

"Y is true where x is less than 5... ...I think "whereas" is most correct

is a mathematical statement, and I would also expect to see 'whereas' as was my initial response.

My follow-up argument is; as this is conversational English, then any word is good enough to use if the meaning is relatively clear. Any quibble about what words to use is down to personal taste. Personally speaking if we all used 'report style' English on the board, it would get pretty dull around here.

@Smiv's - Yep, rightly or wrongly, I use them as well.
@Redspear - I'm generally indecisive any day The good news is 'whilst' and 'while' have exactly the same meaning, so you're definitely not wrong!
@Day - Funny, my other language skills seem to work fine while I'm drunk too - or perhaps that should be; when they are

SteveKing wrote:

Damn, I had a good reply going and then I accidentally hit the 'go back' button on my mouse

My sincere and profound sympathy to you. I hate it when that happens!!1!11

SteveKing wrote:

Suffice to say though

Wildeblood wrote:

"Y is true where x is less than 5...

is a mathematical statement...

Yes, it is. What I was saying is that my exposure to such statements has prejudiced me against a plain English reading of "where". That will not be true for all readers.

SteveKing wrote:

My follow-up argument is; as this is conversational English, then any word is good enough to use if the meaning is relatively clear. Any quibble about what words to use is down to personal taste. Personally speaking if we all used 'report style' English on the board, it would get pretty dull around here.

You were good humoured about this yesterday, why are you being defensive this morning? I'm not quibbling, I'm exploring the possibilities.

SteveKing wrote:

The good news is 'whilst' and 'while' have exactly the same meaning...

Thinkst thou so? Dost not inflecting words with -st seemst archaic? Seriously, am I the only one amazed by the rise of "amongst" & "whilst" from hitherto poetic or archaic use only to mainstream use over the last two decades?

Astrobe wrote:

Wildeblood wrote:

I think "whereas" is most correct, but who says or writes "whereas" in conversational English?

Non-native speakers. We learn from books, we speak like books (or we try to, without even knowing it).

Quite so. I see "moreover" used on this board (by Norby, but also I think by others) and it stands out like a sore thumb. It's exactly the right word where it's used, but it shouts, "English is not my first language." People stopped saying "moreover" about the same time they started saying "whilst".

Wildeblood wrote:

Thinkst thou so? Dost not inflecting words with -st seemst archaic? Seriously, am I the only one amazed by the rise of "amongst" & "whilst" from hitherto poetic or archaic use only to mainstream use over the last two decades?

I quite like the archaic use sometimes, it is more appropriate in some circumstances. I wouldn't use it in say a statement of objective temporal periodicity, as in "I've been happy for a while", but I might use it "whilst cogitating a specific conundrum", but probably not "while sitting in a lounge chair nursing a cup of tea". All before I get up to continue my laundry demolition job by "getting amongst it". I think their increased use comes from age and understanding rather than fashion.

erm... I presume the aforementioned "hitherto" was deliberate?

Wildeblood wrote:

I'm not quibbling

Sorry wrong choice of archaic word Maybe I should have shown more perspicaciousness (I hope that's the right spelling) in my choice of the word

quibble ˈkwɪb(ə)l
verb
1. argue or raise objections about a trivial matter.
"they are always quibbling about the amount they are prepared to pay"
synonyms: find fault with, raise trivial objections to, complain about, object to, cavil at, carp about; split hairs, chop logic; criticize, query, fault, pick holes in; informal nitpick; archaic pettifog
"no one would quibble with the subtitle"
be evasive, equivocate, avoid the issue, prevaricate, hedge, fudge, be ambiguous;
informalbeat about the bush
"he's always quibbling, so it is difficult to get a straight answer out of him"

It wasn't meant to be a whinge, just a difference in opinion. Maybe I could have used pettifog

Astrobe wrote:

Wildeblood wrote:

I think "whereas" is most correct, but who says or writes "whereas" in conversational English?

Non-native speakers. We learn from books, we speak like books (or we try to, without even knowing it).

Yup, and spoken english disappear whilst written english endures and will be read by future speakers.

Lots of spoken english terms have been forgotten (would you know how english was spoken (and not written) in the XIVth century 100km from London?).

I realize that spoken english is more than ever used in written sentences on the net, forever preserved, Oh amazing world!

And I wonder what is the proportion of "native english net writers" compared to "international english net writers"?

<joke from a french>Maybe american and uk english will become mere dialects?</joke>

SteveKing wrote:

@Day - Funny, my other language skills seem to work fine while I'm drunk too - or perhaps that should be; when they are

Well, if I use oppposing statements (whereas, but, etc), it's because I try to explain something complex. Being slightly drunk. On holidays. To probably drunk people too. On holidays too, so not too keen on losing their time to anything needlessly complicated. So, no complex idea, no useless idea, no complex grammatical form, and some work on my acccent. So short sentences with simple words. No "whereas".

Hmm, maybe yours are working because you're not drunk enough? ;-D

The example of a word conjuring up an association with mathematics is a good example of the subtleties and personal associations of words.

In my case, this sometimes leads to a sort of fake grammar of what feels right to me, even if there is no such established connection with English 'at large'. With words that can sometimes be used interchangeably, the chance of me being dissuaded from (or even made aware of) a prejudice or personal habit is reduced.

For example.

While I was looking for a new version of elite, I was delighted to find 'oolite'.

I might say something like that in a fairly formal conversation.

While looking for a new version of elite, I was delighted to find 'oolite'.

I wouldn't likely say that as it feels a bit like talking about myself in the 'third person'. I feel a need to identify the while as in the first example.

Whilst looking for a new version of elite, I was delighted to find 'oolite'.

I probably wouldn't say this very often but I'd happily write it, as a sort of abbreviation to the first quote (not feeling a need to define the situation as much as I do with 'while'). So although this is archaic or pompous to some, to me it's a short-cut, closer to 'isn't' and 'wouldn't', even though there is no such ruling (AFAIK).

The second example I gave would be at risk of appearing most forced or pretentious to my eyes/ears even though I know that would be based on nothing more substantial than my own habits and their resulting prejudices.

...and it is 'among' rather than 'amongst' which usually sounds most jarring, most unusual to me for some reason. 'Moreover' remains a word I occasionally read, rather than one I think I've ever spoken...

Smivs wrote:

Wildeblood wrote:

...but who says or writes "whereas" in conversational English?

Me!
I also use hitherto, albeit and nonetheless. I'm a bit funny like that.

Likewise!

Astrobe wrote:

Wildeblood wrote:

I think "whereas" is most correct, but who says or writes "whereas" in conversational English?

Non-native speakers. We learn from books, we speak like books (or we try to, without even knowing it).

I'm a native English speaker, as is Smivs.