Proposal for 1.82: combat balance changes

[Commander_X]

[...] I destroyed a group of 5 pirates. Then another 5 came in which was too much. [...]

This is something quite _un-natural_ (?!) (and unhappily challenging ) : most of the pirate groups are coming in at least 5 pieces at once.
Shouldn't there be a more dispersed outlaws grouping around (i.e. with some more bearable distributions of offenders; at least 5 and all of them quite good marksmen, melts the ice in your tonic, or heats up your beer quite fast, while you're too busy with the screen )

[pagroove]

[...] I destroyed a group of 5 pirates. Then another 5 came in which was too much. [...]

This is something quite _un-natural_ (?!) (and unhappily challenging ) : most of the pirate groups are coming in at least 5 pieces at once.
Shouldn't there be a more dispersed outlaws grouping around (i.e. with some more bearable distributions of offenders; at least 5 and all of them quite good marksmen, melts the ice in your tonic, or heats up your beer quite fast, while you're too busy with the screen )

Well what happened was that after I destroyed the first group there was a second group. But at first they where not fighting me.

That second group of offenders where fighting some other ships at the witch point. One of the group members opened a wormhole and when they where flying to it one of the ships started shooting me (the others kept flying to the wormhole). It remained one ship but as I had sustained damage from the last fight I was not in the best shape so it was press space.

More testing is needed though.

[Commander_X]

More testing is needed though.

Yes, I'm with you.

I guess my main <cough>observation</cough> is that the minimum number of offenders that come out as group lately, is at least 5 in most of the cases. Also _very likely_ it is higher than that, and *quite extremely rarely* less than that.

Am I wrong, or just unfortunately hanging in the wrong places?

[pagroove]

More testing is needed though.

Yes, I'm with you.

I guess my main <cough>observation</cough> is that the minimum number of offenders that come out as group lately, is at least 5 in most of the cases. Also _very likely_ it is higher than that, and *quite extremely rarely* less than that.

Am I wrong, or just unfortunately hanging in the wrong places?

Thats my observation also. Groups are quite large.

[Venator Dha]

I've been playing a commander from harmless to competent (155 kills) with the new laser stats and have a few observations:

Start (harmless - poor) : Still hard but manageable now, no instant kill when attacked, able to dodge and regenerate shields. Meeting multiple ships with beam lasers is still very dangerous but if they have pulse then, after a good fight, victory is possible. Meeting the occasional 1 or 2 ship groups (too rare I think) the fight is in my favour. Use of missiles to degrade shields very important, I'm using them a lot now as pulse laser is underpowered - this is good as there needs to be a reason to upgrade to a beam.
Take home : For people with some experience combat is in a good place now. For total beginners the combat is hard but survivable if they learn quickly, the bigger problem is that they don't meet singles or pairs very often to learn the basics of combat.

Developing (poor - above average) : Combat is in a sweet spot here once Beam lasers/EEU/Shield enhancements installed. Good dogfights (when encountering 4-5 hostiles) that last some time, with a good chance of victory to either side.
Take home : The Beam laser is in the right place, don't change.

Improving (above average - competent) : With the purchase of military lasers the balance is too much in favour of the player. The military laser feels more overpowered than before. Dog fights rare now as many hostile ships destroyed before they can get in range for their weapons. The problem is two fold, I think: The laser doesn't over-heat as quickly so it is easier to keep firing even if you miss and the torus drive stopping quicker means that they are farther away enabling more time for sniping.
Take home : A return to the old stats for the military laser is required.

Other observations : My combat tactics have changed with more missile use and more twisting & turning dogfights (at least in earlier stages), making the combat much more enjoyable. Some changes in the system populator required to increase the 1 & 2 ship encounters - important for beginners.

Overall I think the changes help the early phase combat, and are in the right place, but have made the more advanced phases too easy.

(personal observations: milage might vary)

[cim]

Thank you for the comprehensive testing.

The bigger problem is that they don't meet singles or pairs very often to learn the basics of combat.

There's probably room to add a few more pirate packs of that size to the mid-safety systems (Confederacy/Communist).

Take home : A return to the old stats for the military laser is required.

Interesting. I find the new one slightly harder to snipe with than the old one, since you have to hold it on target longer to do the same damage.

I don't think switching the stats back is the answer - really, if you have a weapon twice the range of the opposition, and a reasonably fast ship, you can sit back and snipe them to death with impunity regardless of the exact stats. Faster torus deceleration makes it easier, but visual ranges are good enough in 1.80 that you can always manually drop torus a little early to get the same advantage. Indeed, a major complaint about 1.80 balance is that it makes long-range sniping by far the safest approach, so this probably hasn't changed much.

I can think of two possible solutions to this - there may be others:
1) Significantly reduce the military laser range, to around 17.5km. You can still snipe with a range advantage, but maintaining that distance where you're safe and they're not is tricky especially against large groups. I think this will be very controversial.

2) Give more NPCs fuel injectors, especially in the larger pirate packs, and adjust their tactics so that they'll use them to close to good weapons range even if you're travelling slowly. If you try sniping at the pack, two or three will use injectors to quickly reach dogfighting range: if you ignore them and keep sniping, you're travelling in a predictable course and get killed; if you switch to dogfighting them, the rest of the pack has time to catch you. You can probably still snipe one or two off, but then you've got to fight or run.

[Cody]

2) Give more NPCs fuel injectors, especially in the larger pirate packs, and adjust their tactics so that they'll use them to close to good weapons range even if you're travelling slowly. If you try sniping at the pack, two or three will use injectors to quickly reach dogfighting range: if you ignore them and keep sniping, you're travelling in a predictable course and get killed; if you switch to dogfighting them, the rest of the pack has time to catch you. You can probably still snipe one or two off, but then you've got to fight or run.

<nods vehemently> This would be good, I reckon - easily the best option of the two!

[Venator Dha]

Thank you for the comprehensive testing.

No problem, I'd be playing the game anyway

The bigger problem is that they don't meet singles or pairs very often to learn the basics of combat.

There's probably room to add a few more pirate packs of that size to the mid-safety systems (Confederacy/Communist).

Yes that would be good

Take home : A return to the old stats for the military laser is required.

Interesting. I find the new one slightly harder to snipe with than the old one, since you have to hold it on target longer to do the same damage.

Probably I have a poorer hit:miss ratio. I found that with the old stats I'd overheat before I'd killed the target, how it's the other way round. So it is probably the change in heat that I think is the problem.

1) Significantly reduce the military laser range, to around 17.5km. You can still snipe with a range advantage, but maintaining that distance where you're safe and they're not is tricky especially against large groups. I think this will be very controversial.

Yes I can see that this would be controversial, and I don't know if that is the best idea as it would not be very different from the beam then. Perhaps an OXP could be written to test how it feels.

2) Give more NPCs fuel injectors, especially in the larger pirate packs, and adjust their tactics so that they'll use them to close to good weapons range even if you're travelling slowly. If you try sniping at the pack, two or three will use injectors to quickly reach dogfighting range: if you ignore them and keep sniping, you're travelling in a predictable course and get killed; if you switch to dogfighting them, the rest of the pack has time to catch you. You can probably still snipe one or two off, but then you've got to fight or run.

This is an idea that sounds good, irrespective of the the laser question, as I think that once you reach competent the game gets a little too easy (without OXPs that make it harder that is )

[cim]

Probably I have a poorer hit:miss ratio. I found that with the old stats I'd overheat before I'd killed the target, how it's the other way round. So it is probably the change in heat that I think is the problem.

Yes, possibly. Though, the total damage from a full cold-to-hot blast from the military laser is almost unchanged, and I think the slower heating (it still heats faster than the beam laser) is necessary to make it a useful dogfighting weapon.

EDIT: Another reason that I'd rather keep the slower-heat slower-damage version of the military laser is it gives the player slightly more time to react if an NPC with a military laser surprises them. Try fighting one of the Viper Interceptor packs in high-tech high-stability systems (the only core game non-mission ships to have military lasers). It'd be good for OXPs to be able to fit the military laser to non-mission ships occasionally without it being automatically overpowered.

[Bogatyr]

I can think of two possible solutions to this - there may be others:
1) Significantly reduce the military laser range, to around 17.5km. You can still snipe with a range advantage, but maintaining that distance where you're safe and they're not is tricky especially against large groups. I think this will be very controversial.

Oh, God, no! Random Hits groups can hit you from 25km, you CANNOT approach them beyond extreme scanner range.

2) Give more NPCs fuel injectors, especially in the larger pirate packs, and adjust their tactics so that they'll use them to close to good weapons range even if you're travelling slowly. If you try sniping at the pack, two or three will use injectors to quickly reach dogfighting range: if you ignore them and keep sniping, you're travelling in a predictable course and get killed; if you switch to dogfighting them, the rest of the pack has time to catch you. You can probably still snipe one or two off, but then you've got to fight or run.

This has potential but I'd keep it to "advanced" packs.

Speaking of missiles, even hardheads seem pointless as offensive weapons and the ships just inject away mostly. They're helpful as defense to get some of the pack to break off, though. But maybe I've just not paid them much attention. One reason is that there are so many huge outlaw groups in 1.80 in anarchies and feudals that any missile-based attack style can't last long.

I would like to say also as my skills return I adjust to the realities of the new combat I find it not so difficult to survive. Tactics are a bit different and diving into a large furball of hostiles is suicide, but that's sort of realistic. I'm doing much better now, but I've switched to a Contractor so that is one major reason I suppose . Boy I love that little Contractor Zero cargo with the self-repair unit installed , but I'm the most renowned parcel carrier in the galaxy .

[cim]

Oh, God, no! Random Hits groups can hit you from 25km, you CANNOT approach them beyond extreme scanner range.

NPC military laser range would be reduced the same, if we did this - it's the same weapon.

This has potential but I'd keep it to "advanced" packs.

Oh, certainly. It has to be a fairly big pirate pack to even have 3 witchdrive-equipped ships, and not all of those will get injectors.

[Venator Dha]

EDIT: Another reason that I'd rather keep the slower-heat slower-damage version of the military laser is it gives the player slightly more time to react if an NPC with a military laser surprises them. Try fighting one of the Viper Interceptor packs in high-tech high-stability systems (the only core game non-mission ships to have military lasers). It'd be good for OXPs to be able to fit the military laser to non-mission ships occasionally without it being automatically overpowered.

Yes, this would be useful. And it's not that I think the military laser is off by much. If it stayed as it is now I'd be Ok with that, I can always not buy them

[Venator Dha]

Thinking a little differently here, and just throwing it out to be shot at

Currently the military laser is an upgrade to the beam laser.
What if they are really just for different uses:
Beam - Dog fighting
Mil - Sniping.
So cost & power are the same, range and heat different.

[Disembodied]

2) Give more NPCs fuel injectors, especially in the larger pirate packs, and adjust their tactics so that they'll use them to close to good weapons range even if you're travelling slowly. If you try sniping at the pack, two or three will use injectors to quickly reach dogfighting range: if you ignore them and keep sniping, you're travelling in a predictable course and get killed; if you switch to dogfighting them, the rest of the pack has time to catch you. You can probably still snipe one or two off, but then you've got to fight or run.

Tail-end sniping - AKA "Monty Pythoning" - still remains as an uber-tactic, although it would be diminished by this (a good thing). I don't think it's possible, or necessary, to kill it completely. However, one idea which just popped up, which might be a quick and cheap way to, if nothing else, stretch out the ship development time and delay the onset of "Monty Pythoning": why not make laser mounts purchasable, rather than built-in? So the starting Cobra III can fit a forward laser, and nothing else. Before you can fit a rear (or port, or starboard) laser, you have to buy the mounting first. C*5000, maybe?

There could even be grades of laser mounts, based on their cooling abilities. You can mount a military laser on a pulse laser point, but it'll overheat incredibly quickly and take an age to cool down. Although this might raise the question of what happens if you fit a beam laser on a military laser mount ... possibly too much complexity! But the basic idea - you can't fit a laser until you fit a mount - might be worth thinking about.

[Zireael]

I like the buyable mounts idea A LOT, and even more if there are grades thrown in!