Proposal for 1.82: support for economic changes

[Venator Dha]

Here's my first thoughts:

PA (Food) > RI (Computers) > MA (radioactives) > MI (Alloys) > AI (Machinery) > AA (Minerals) > RA (Liquor) > PI (Textiles) > PA.

PA - requires good work clothing (Textiles) - produces cheap basic food (Food)
RI - requires all it's food stuffs imported (food) - produces high tech Detection/surveying equipment (Computers)
MA - requires high tech Detection/surveying equipment (Computers) - produces Uranium (Radioactives)
MI - requires Uranium for power plants (Radioactives) - produces Durallium (Alloys)
AI - requires Durallium for factories (Alloys) - produces mining equipment (Machinery)
AA - requires mining equipment (Machinery) - produces inorganic fertilisers (Minerals)
RA - requires inorganic fertilisers (Minerals) - produces quality wines (Liquor)
PI - requires quality wines (Liquor) - produces good work clothing (Textiles)

[Zireael]

The only nitpick I have with your version, Venator Dha, is that I'm not sure if minerals qualify as fertilizer:

Unrefined mineral ores, with trace elements of useful metals.

Minerals -> Computers works better IMHO, but I like Alloys -> Machinery in your version a lot.

Maybe it'd be possible to combine those two?

machinery -> food -> x -> y -> minerals -> computers -> radioactives -> alloys -> machinery

The biggest problem I have is to figure out what x and y could stand for.
x = luxuries y = textiles
luxuries -> textiles -> minerals?
x = textiles y = luxuries
textiles -> luxuries -> minerals
x= furs y = luxuries
furs -> luxuries -> minerals
x = liquor y = furs
liquor -> furs -> minerals
x = liquor y = textiles
liquor -> textiles -> minerals

or maybe minerals -> computers -> radioactives -> alloys -> machinery -> food -> liquor -> textiles -> minerals?

[Venator Dha]

The only nitpick I have with your version, Venator Dha, is that I'm not sure if minerals qualify as fertilizer:

Unrefined mineral ores, with trace elements of useful metals.

Yes some need more bending and reshaping to make them fit than others

machinery -> food -> x -> y -> minerals -> computers -> radioactives -> alloys -> machinery

x= furs y = luxuries
furs -> luxuries -> minerals

makes the most sense to me

[SteveKing]

Only 2cr worth as a justification...

Industrial fertilisers are definitely minerals based, whether it is the mining of Phosphorus from guano (primarily bird or bat shit or any readily available manure high in P content) or the mining of phosphate from volcanic sources and Potassium from evaporites (crystalised salts).

Secondary inputs to fertilisers are Calcium and Magnesium (from limestone and/or evaporites), Sulphur from volcanoes or as a byproduct of coal.

The adding of nitrate by simple processing converts it to products like NH4NO3, Superphosphate, Potash.

This stuff is easily extractable/generated (low-med TL, Mainly/Average Agriculture/Industry, whichever suits).

RA wouldn't produce a lot of it as they are into high quality farming. Farms use a lot of it, but the raw materials don't generally come from arable lands, usually desert (evaporite), remote rocky volcanic islands/mountains (guano, phosphate, sulphur), by product of power industry (sulphur from coal).


Also if Radioactives need to be moved around to make a better fit, then Mainly/Average Industry can generate a lot of downstream processed radioactives - plutonium being an obvious one.

Certainly not traditional 'minerals' as we know them (Iron, Nickel, Copper, Zinc, Coal), but nonetheless...

[Zireael]

Industrial fertilisers are definitely minerals based, whether it is the mining of Phosphorus from guano (primarily bird or bat shit or any readily available manure high in P content) or the mining of phosphate from volcanic sources and Potassium from evaporites (crystalised salts).

This thread is starting to stink, don't ya think?

And the post was really informative, SteveKing, thanks!

[Venator Dha]

An outline suggestion - probably best through an OXP. Not fully worked through - just throwing it out there

Create different groups of 8 commodities that are supplied and demanded by different types of system. This would make a 8 way trade ring easier to construct.
The trade rings can be based on Economy (as now), Government, or even tech level.
An Economy based system using those goods we already have would keep the original feel.
A Government based system would allow the selection of legal / illegal goods to make sense: e.g. Luxuries could be illegal in Communist states making them more profitable for someone who can smuggle them in.
Tech level could create trade in different tec-level type good: e.g. Digital watches to those low tec worlds who are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea who produce hand made baskets that are oh so chic in the mass produced world of a high tec system.
Other points
Precious metals & gems prices / availability could be driven by the number of Rock Hermits in a system.
Remove Alien Items from trade - replace with a standard bounty -25Cr for destruction -50Cr for delivering to a Galcop station (would take up cargo space as now)

[Zireael]

I like the ideas but please keep Alien Items. They could be made into another wildcard like Narcotics, but legal.

[Disembodied]

I like the ideas but please keep Alien Items. They could be made into another wildcard like Narcotics, but legal.

I think one thing that needs to be done is to remove Alien Items from the list of possible cargos carried by NPCs (unless, of course, they have actually scooped some dead Tharglets). It's always seemed odd to me to find cargo canisters with Alien Items in them.

[Falcon777]

A lot of these suggestions are pretty darn cool, I gotta say. However, there's something that's been nagging me at the back of my mind.

Trading commodities between planets would certainly be improved by a lot of these suggestions, but none of that really mitigates the fact that trading commodities is an early game thing, replaced by courier work/cargo contracts/passenger contracts/random hits contracts/navy reserve missions/etc once someone has the capital and equipment on their ship to change over. Given how long it takes to reach Elite, I think I can say that those "alternative" jobs replace trading commodities in the mid game. Is there anyway that along with changing the boring rich industrial to poor agriculture milk run aspect that trading commodities could become slightly more viable for longer term profits?

[Venator Dha]

Is there anyway that along with changing the boring rich industrial to poor agriculture milk run aspect that trading commodities could become slightly more viable for longer term profits?

Well there's  New_Cargoes which is Byzantine in it's complexity, that comes with high risk / rewards.
One thing that it has is trading goods from one galaxy to another. Perhaps that is an avenue that could be explored further here?

[Wildeblood]

Trading commodities between planets would certainly be improved by a lot of these suggestions, but none of that really mitigates the fact that trading commodities is an early game thing, replaced by courier work/cargo contracts/passenger contracts/random hits contracts/navy reserve missions/etc once someone has the capital and equipment on their ship to change over. Given how long it takes to reach Elite, I think I can say that those "alternative" jobs replace trading commodities in the mid game. Is there anyway that along with changing the boring rich industrial to poor agriculture milk run aspect that trading commodities could become slightly more viable for longer term profits?

Yes, the way to put spot trading back at the heart of game, where it belongs, is to remove all those get rich quick schemes you mention. That's why random hits and navy missions are in OXPs, and should stay there. Why the courier versus assassin dynamic belongs in OXPs and should not be in the core game. To improve the spot trading system, first re-focus attention on it, by removing the cargo contract and parcel contract systems to OXPs. They should not be in the core game, unless they are seriously toned down so they can't compete with spot trading as the player's main source of income.

Well there's  New_Cargoes which is Byzantine in it's complexity, that comes with high risk / rewards.

High risk leading to high rewards is a Hollywood myth. High rewards come from avoiding risks. Risks means costs. New Cargoes is an impressive OXP, but because it's based on a false premise (among other reasons, mostly the mentioned Byzantine complexity) should remain an OXP.

One thing that it has is trading goods from one galaxy to another. Perhaps that is an avenue that could be explored further here?

Absolutely, if delivery contracts are to remain there is no excuse for not having intergalactic contracts. A sufficiently thorough search will find me arguing for that years ago.

[Zireael]

I agree with Wildeblood about New Cargoes.

However, if we want to focus on trading, we just have to make it more interesting than milk-running (computers to Agri, food to Ind, you don't even have to min-max RI to PA).

[Wildeblood]

There's a related issue that no-one's mentioned yet: should Oolite have a financial system? Should we be able to go to the Black Monks and get a loan at a not-quite-so-usurious interest rate, and have a method of making repayments that isn't quite so blood-curdling? I've often thought of a Black Monks' ATM at stations, so you only had to visit the monastery to take out a loan, but could make repayments - full or partial - almost anywhere. How would it affect the early game if you could borrow money to buy equipment or expensive commodities?

[Disembodied]

High risk leading to high rewards is a Hollywood myth. High rewards come from avoiding risks. Risks means costs. New Cargoes is an impressive OXP, but because it's based on a false premise (among other reasons, mostly the mentioned Byzantine complexity) should remain an OXP.

We're not trying to build a simulation here (at least, I don't think we are): we're trying to build a game. High risk = high (potential) reward is a good game mechanic, and that's worth ditching any amount of realism, as far as I'm concerned. This is why people choose to get their entertainment from Hollywood, instead of the Financial Times. Although long-range economic forecasts are good for a bellylaugh or two.

Equally, cargo and parcel contracts are also good game mechanics. I think they could be improved by toning down the reward levels, and reducing distances: put more short-range, low-payout contracts on offer, and have only an occasional few high-risk, high-reward jackpots: making them rare will maybe make them more interesting. And I'd definitely support trimming back the precious metals and gems contracts. If spot trading is made more interesting, essentially by making it more complex and introducing the possibility of failure, then we'll need to provide an alternative way for beginners to make some reliable money to get them started.

There's a related issue that no-one's mentioned yet: should Oolite have a financial system? Should we be able to go to the Black Monks and get a loan at a not-quite-so-usurious interest rate, and have a method of making repayments that isn't quite so blood-curdling? I've often thought of a Black Monks' ATM at stations, so you only had to visit the monastery to take out a loan, but could make repayments - full or partial - almost anywhere. How would it affect the early game if you could borrow money to buy equipment or expensive commodities?

I'm a big fan of using debt in the game: personally, I think all players should start off with a ship, C*100 in cash, a whopping big overdraft to service, and a consequently lousy credit rating. The interest on the loan is a great way of draining off finances: the ideal would be to keep the player teetering on the brink, sometimes able to move ahead and afford some new kit, sometimes sliding back and having to take on dodgier cargos and more dubious runs to get back even. It's a great mechanism, and there's lots of potential to build in non-financial favours and penalties, too. It's a major restructuring job, though.

[Wildeblood]

This is why people choose to get their entertainment from Hollywood, instead of the Financial Times.

Tell me who has said this to you, when, and where?*

* First non-Aussie to recognize this pop culture reference wins a prize.