Oolite Bulletins

[Moderator: Split from "So what should I say about Oolite... thread]

spud42 wrote:

Disembodied wrote:

"Oolite BB: Mainly Industrial, Anarchy, TL 9: Human Colonials (mostly).
The Oolite BB is mostly noted for its exotic night life but scourged by deadly edible arts graduates."

"Anarchy" really? i find this a most civilized place to berth.

You are thinking of the media's version of the word which they like to lump with the phrase “Chaos.”

An-arkos - no government. (Doesn't mean a break down in society.)

Tricky wrote:

spud42 wrote:

Disembodied wrote:

"Oolite BB: Mainly Industrial, Anarchy, TL 9: Human Colonials (mostly).
The Oolite BB is mostly noted for its exotic night life but scourged by deadly edible arts graduates."

"Anarchy" really? i find this a most civilized place to berth.

You are thinking of the media's version of the word which they like to lump with the phrase “Chaos.”

An-arkos - no government. (Doesn't mean a break down in society.)

Yep.. as a rule, anarchic societies are better organised, more egalitarian, and better behaved than most "normal" societies.. but whenever one appears, they get (violently) suppressed by the surrounding hierarchical societies, because their mere existence shows that rulers are actually unnecessary and a hindrance. To the Powers That Be, there is nothing more dangerous than a good example.

(In case you were wondering, spud, yes, I'm a staunch anarchist)

may one then ask why it is that one of the most dangerous systems in the Ooniverse are Anarchy systems?

spud42 wrote:

may one then ask why it is that one of the most dangerous systems in the Ooniverse are Anarchy systems?

Ian Bell and David Braben, the creators of Elite back in the '80s, were taken in by the anti-anarchist propaganda that is heavily promoted by The Parasites That Be, in order to scare their citizens away from the idea.

As are most people today. They only ever get to hear one side of the story.

Since Oolite attempts to be a re-creation of Elite, it too stays faithful to the same perspective. I've actually considered making an "Anarchies" OXP, along the lines of "Commies" or "Feudal States" that would present a more authentic face, but the whole thing was far beyond my meager abilities.. I'd even gone so far as commissioning some ship designs.

spud42 wrote:

may one then ask why it is that one of the most dangerous systems in the Ooniverse are Anarchy systems?

A few options there:
1) My preferred one: Actual well-disorganised anarchies get themselves filed as one of the other categories by the Cooperative's classifiers.

"So how many governments are there on this planet?"
"Around 1.6 billion. We don't keep an exact count."
"And do they all get on with each other?"
"Reasonably so, I would say."
"Okay, I'll put you down as a Confederacy for now."

It's not just anarchies which play that game, of course - to the extent that the classifiers are suspected of making the judgement by watching how many pirates their escort fleet fends off on the way in, and asking carefully leading questions to make the classification fit.
2) A consideration of the Cooperative's laws related to slaves, narcotics and firearms (especially slaves) leads to the logical conclusion that it is considerably more malevolent than the popular propaganda shows it to be. Of course if you stick your nose in trying to bring the Cooperative's rigid corporatist governance to one of the few free systems where slavery is illegal you're going to get it shot off.
3) Funding a bunch of pirates to ensure that Anarchy systems can't get essential components at a reasonable price and so stay poor and low-tech is a good way for the surrounding hierarchies to help encourage a change of governance.

spud42 wrote:

As a new player i think one of the big draws is that everyones Ooniverse is coustomisable to how they want to see the game,
I do feel that the community is a large part of the immersion.
Thank you for starting this wonderful experience.

I couldn't agree more, I never played Elite, but I think Oolite is awesome. Griff is right about watching your first ship flying around, and for someone like me with no experience with modeling or texturing it would have been impossible without the amazing support of this board. Its very cool to watch peoples ideas grow into OXPs on the board. Everyone is so helpful and friendly often coming up with more ideas so OXPs become much more complex than would be possible with only a few developers creating them.

Diziet Sma wrote:

To the Powers That Be, there is nothing more dangerous than a good example.

Indeed this is why I go to every Rainbow Gathering I can, drum circles and mixed hallucinogens are cool, but its really about being part of such an example.

cim wrote:

Funding a bunch of pirates to ensure that Anarchy systems can't get essential components at a reasonable price and so stay poor and low-tech is a good way for the surrounding hierarchies to help encourage a change of governance.

Some Anarchists might even prefer this situation...caring little for tech or material wealth...wanting only to live simple organic lives...with nightly laser shows in the sky.

cim wrote:

spud42 wrote:

may one then ask why it is that one of the most dangerous systems in the Ooniverse are Anarchy systems?

A few options there:
1) My preferred one: Actual well-disorganised anarchies get themselves filed as one of the other categories by the Cooperative's classifiers.

"So how many governments are there on this planet?"
"Around 1.6 billion. We don't keep an exact count."
"And do they all get on with each other?"
"Reasonably so, I would say."
"Okay, I'll put you down as a Confederacy for now."

Definitely this! The Co-op categories are subjective, and externally created. Some Anarchy planets might genuinely be terrible places to live, swarming with belligerent warbands with constantly shifting alliances, and no recognisable single, central authority (this could easily be Earth, c. 2000 BCE; or Earth, c. 1914 CE, for that matter). Others could be peaceful, self-organising communities, who have simply chosen to have as little to do with the Co-operative as possible. With over 2,000 planets, and hundreds of different species, there's going to be a huge variety of societal forms and moral codes, not reducible to simple classifications.

Guys, I am splitting the anarchy part of the discussion to its own thread. Let's keep aegidian's original thread focused on Oolite.

another_commander wrote:

Guys, I am splitting the anarchy part of the discussion to its own thread. Let's keep aegidian's original thread focused on Oolite.

Thanks, it wasnt my intent to derail the thread with a discussion of political ideals. Franky i abstained after my initial question because after trying to read the WIKI on anarchy i was at more of a loss than ever.

I must say that after reading a bit of what anarchy should be as opposed to what i have been lead to believe by media, i still wonder at the long term stability of the concept.It is human nature unfortunately for someone who rightly or wrongly thinks himself better than another to try to lead/control/dominate said person. I can see it working in a sparse population spread out. but even then some people are "sheep" and others are "wolves" . Some people want, need to be lead.... is this not the start of "government" even at a small village/tribe level?

When things get to the scale of large cities the level of cooperation to achieve true anarchy i think is extremely difficult. from the wiki it seems that most anarchies have begun and ended in war.

But then again all other forms of government have lead to wars as well... for any political system to work people need to be more selfless and lose the selfish....

spud42 wrote:

It is human nature [...]

It's true that anarchy might be a struggle for a hierarchical primate - although it's also possible that a society, beginning from scratch on a new planet, might be able to set itself up is such a way as to avoid the development of hierarchies, or at least make them awkward and unlikely. Other species, though, might not have to deal with the same monkey inheritance.

I think though the central thing to remember is that the classifications are very broad, imposed from outside, and really only take into consideration the stability of a particular system for interstellar trade. All the categories can contain a huge variety of reality down on the planets themselves. One Corporate State, for example, might be a collectivist, co-operative haven, where everyone pulls together for the benefit of the community; another might be a lawless hellhole where money is the only measure of morality: if you can pay for it, you can do it. From up in space, though, they both look the same: lots of Viper patrols keeping the spacelanes safe for trade.

spud42 wrote:

I must say that after reading a bit of what anarchy should be as opposed to what i have been lead to believe by media, i still wonder at the long term stability of the concept.It is human nature unfortunately for someone who rightly or wrongly thinks himself better than another to try to lead/control/dominate said person. I can see it working in a sparse population spread out. but even then some people are "sheep" and others are "wolves" . Some people want, need to be lead.... is this not the start of "government" even at a small village/tribe level?

When things get to the scale of large cities the level of cooperation to achieve true anarchy i think is extremely difficult. from the wiki it seems that most anarchies have begun and ended in war.

But then again all other forms of government have lead to wars as well... for any political system to work people need to be more selfless and lose the selfish....

I could get into some quite detailed discussion about all the above points, but to be honest, it would be so far off the track of what's generally discussed on this board that I doubt it would really even be appropriate for the Outworld section. Maybe best done via PM.


About the only thing I'll mention now, is that the more I study things, the more I'm inclined to agree with those who maintain there is no such thing as "human nature".. that all human behaviour is learned, and the only thing we're born with is a suckling reflex. In other words, everything we think of as "human nature" is inculcated by the culture we grow up in.

i agree, i was only curious about why the board/community was likened to an anarchy planet.....

as for nature Vs nurture..... thats a whole new can of worms........

i can see my kids gentle nature being corrupted by my ex's attitude to things, i.e. they are picking up her ways. so i think you might be right there.

by the way i am not advocating any system over another and Dizy has given me something to think about..... cant go wrong there...

Just glad that me and Dizi have opened your mind. The media is really biased on the subject of Anarchism.

Tricky wrote:

The media is really biased on the subject of Anarchism.

<grins wryly> The media is really biased on the subject of [insert subject].

Cody wrote:

Tricky wrote:

The media is really biased on the subject of Anarchism.

<grins wryly> The media is really biased on the subject of [insert subject].

whatever pissed the editor off that day !!!!!