Oolite Bulletins

Hello all.

I'm working on a SimonB's Navy Carrier and toying with an idea of filling it with Navy Sidewinders (going to use the sidewinder-x from Staer9 as a base). They should be cheap and there should be plenty. I'm pondering what equipment makes sense. Military laser, injectors and ecm of course and I'm also going to put in one hard missile.

But what about extra energy unit and shield boosters and especially military versions of those. If the fighter's going to be cheap, would the Navy put military grade equipment in it? Or would they just put a stock extra energy unit in? What do you think, how rare/expensive is that military grade technology to the Navy anyway?

Probably the best idea is to try out some weapons and equipment mixes and see how they fare against pirates and Thargoids (and probably the player, too) in the game. The ideal result should be to create a ship that can handle itself against comparable in-game opposition without making the in-game opposition obsolete. Balance it out first, and justify the decisions later!

spara wrote:

But what about extra energy unit and shield boosters and especially military versions of those. If the fighter's going to be cheap, would the Navy put military grade equipment in it? Or would they just put a stock extra energy unit in? What do you think, how rare/expensive is that military grade technology to the Navy anyway?

Civilian-grade EEU and boosters would cost ~10,000 credits on the open market; military would cost ~100,000 credits. If you assume the in-game ship prices are a reasonable reflection of how much a ship costs (or, at least, that the ratio between ship prices and equipment prices is correct), the military version is probably not going to more than double or triple the price of the ship, so it's probably worth it.

Perhaps a different way to look at it is by the effect: an NPC Sidewinder with both shield boosters fitted has shields 25% tougher than a Thargoid Warship; with the military laser it has a weapon almost twice the range, and around 15 times the damage output (sure, the warship doesn't have to aim, and doesn't need to worry about overheating). With injectors, it can operate for a couple of minutes at around five times the warship's speed, so laser overheating isn't a massive problem, and it isn't that much slower even when the fuel runs out. Oh, and it's also around 2% of the volume. (Indeed, it's tougher than the Constrictor prototype, though not quite as fast, and a comparable size)

Unless you either want them to smash aside a Thargoid fleet in seconds, or are planning to make the Thargoids a lot tougher too, then I'd say "beam laser, no other upgrades" is the way to go. Three of them with trained pilots can still do a lot of damage.

Thanks guys. This helps a lot.

The standard Sidewinder doesn't have jump capability and therefore would not have injectors as it has no fuel tank!
I don't think fuel injectors should be an option in the first place particularly considering it will be carrier-based, presumably as a close-defence fighter. Also the carrier will have ECM and could cover the battlefield adequately. Omitting injectors and ECM would free up space within the Sidewinder allowing other equipment (such as energy units) to be fitted. As a close-defence fighter a beam laser would be ample (it doesn't need the range of a military laser), and it might be a nice touch to add an escape capsule - those pilots are valuable!

Smivs wrote:

The standard Sidewinder doesn't have jump capability and therefore would not have injectors as it has no fuel tank!

The core game's Krait has no witchdrive and also has injectors more often than not.

spara wrote:

what about extra energy unit and shield boosters and especially military versions of those.

My [wiki]ShipVersion[/wiki] OXP never add shield boosters nor military things to ships below 30t mass (neither for v10) and sidewinder has 25t only.
I think [wiki]Extra_Energy_Unit[/wiki] should be standard on all Navy ship due to it is cheap and my OXP already award it to many ship (from v3).

What about  Naval Energy Units? Not for Sidewinders?

JazHaz wrote:

What about  Naval Energy Units? Not for Sidewinders?

Not for small ships under 30t to differentiate from the large ones in ShipVersion OXP.

Navy maybe can not fit this into a small escort also or the estimated price (300,000 cr) is too high and directorate decided to buy 3 more Sidewinder first.

The Wiki wrote:

Designed ... to Galactic Navy specifications for a multi-purpose support craft...
The specification was for a small, mass-produced ship which would be inexpensive to build by the thousand.
While the Galactic Navy still uses thousands of these small ships for reconnaisance and as a light fighter, in recent years this ship is more commonly seen as a trader escort...

So the Sidewinder is already a Navy ship. Perhaps there is no need to change it, unless you are looking for a super-sidewinder for some reason. Having said that, I do think an escape capsule and extra energy units would be valid here, but otherwise I'd stay with the original spec.

Smivs wrote:

The Wiki wrote:

Designed ... to Galactic Navy specifications for a multi-purpose support craft...
The specification was for a small, mass-produced ship which would be inexpensive to build by the thousand.
While the Galactic Navy still uses thousands of these small ships for reconnaisance and as a light fighter, in recent years this ship is more commonly seen as a trader escort...

So the Sidewinder is already a Navy ship.

That's why it caught my eye .

Smivs wrote:

Perhaps there is no need to change it, unless you are looking for a super-sidewinder for some reason. Having said that, I do think an escape capsule and extra energy units would be valid here, but otherwise I'd stay with the original spec.

I'm currently pitting SimonB's Carrier carrying 6 Sidewinders with a Thargoid-thargorn Mothership from Thargorn Threat. My aim is to make them equal. At the moment Navy is losing....

spara wrote:

I'm currently pitting SimonB's Carrier carrying 6 Sidewinders with a Thargoid-thargorn Mothership from Thargorn Threat. My aim is to make them equal. At the moment Navy is losing....

Ah, OK. Having taken a look at the wiki for the OXP I can see they are a tough oponent. Four thargoid lasers on the cruiser and eight thargons (robot fighters). My guess is the problem might be tactical. If the Sidewinders engaged the Thargons, that would leave the carrier to engage the Thargoid cruiser, and that may or may not be a mis-match. However they probably all attack the thargoid cruiser and therefore take heavy losses.
I'm not sure that 'ubering' the sidewinders is the answer though - I personally have a problem with massive increases in a ship's potential as only so much can be fitted in a hull. I don't like the idea of just adding stuff with no balancing reductions in other areas.
Sidewinders are very small, so could the carrier not have a compliment of ten rather than six?
Also the Thargoids are supposed to be superior to us in many respects, and if they kick our asses most of the time, that sounds about right to me.

Smivs wrote:

spara wrote:

I'm currently pitting SimonB's Carrier carrying 6 Sidewinders with a Thargoid-thargorn Mothership from Thargorn Threat. My aim is to make them equal. At the moment Navy is losing....

Ah, OK. Having taken a look at the wiki for the OXP I can see they are a tough oponent. Four thargoid lasers on the cruiser and eight thargons (robot fighters). My guess is the problem might be tactical. If the Sidewinders engaged the Thargons, that would leave the carrier to engage the Thargoid cruiser, and that may or may not be a mis-match. However they probably all attack the thargoid cruiser and therefore take heavy losses.
I'm not sure that 'ubering' the sidewinders is the answer though - I personally have a problem with massive increases in a ship's potential as only so much can be fitted in a hull. I don't like the idea of just adding stuff with no balancing reductions in other areas.
Sidewinders are very small, so could the carrier not have a compliment of ten rather than six?
Also the Thargoids are supposed to be superior to us in many respects, and if they kick our asses most of the time, that sounds about right to me.

I'm with you here. I don't want to uberize Sidewinders. I'll rather bring in other ships, if needed.

The scenario I have in mind is that the first 8 behemoths (type 1) tipped the balance to GalCop. Then Thargorn Threat tipped the balance back to Thargoids. 8 more behemoths were produced (type 2), but the balance is still in favor to Thargoids. And then the Thargoid Carrier came, as in Drew's books. New Navy Carriers are built, only 4 this time, hopefully they will bring hope back.

So I'm trying to create something that will have even some change against Thargoids from Thargorn Threat.

After some tests, it's seems obvious that a single Carrier with Sidewinders is not enough although the Carrier built by Simon is quite capable. Souping up the sidewinders does not do much difference as the Carrier get's vaporized quite fast. A single escorting Light Destroyer, also by Simon, seems to help there. I'll keep experimenting.

Smivs wrote:

Also the Thargoids are supposed to be superior to us in many respects, and if they kick our asses most of the time, that sounds about right to me.

+1 on this ... there's a reason the Co-operative has to co-opt civilian pilots all the time!

When it comes to the Navy fighting the bugs, am I right in assuming that the ECM was originally a Thargoid development? In which case, presumably the [wiki]ECM Hardened Missile[/wiki] was developed as an anti-Thargoid weapon ... so where are the Navy missile boats? One might expect to see Navy capital ships, capable of launching spreads of hardheads at Thargoid capital ships. It would probably mean a whole new AI, to favour stand-off combat and early missile launch - and would presumably require a new response in kind from the bugs: possibly anti-missile plasma flak and/or launching Tharglets that could target missiles ...

Thargoid ECM is quite effective against hardheads as well, unfortunately. I have sometimes lobbed four or five hardheads in quick succession at a Thargoid warship, with limited success. Sometimes one of my missiles gets through, and if the Thargoid has already taken a few hits from me it can be destroyed, but more often than not they still survive.