[RELEASE] D.T.T. Manta

[Paradox]

Has anyone else had any weird issues with the Manta? I just saw a pirate in a Manta, with no wings....?!?!? They are a sub-entity, but they should not be frangible... I jumped into another system, and saw another one that was completely normal. Any ideas?

I was just ambushed at the witchpoint by a Manta. It had both its wings, until I hit it with my military lasers a few times - then only the flashers from the wingtips remained, making it look sort of like a space dragonfly.

Also I noticed that NPC Mantas and DTT Mk1s seem to always have front and aft lasers installed (usually I don't run into any ships with such configuration outside the like of Random Hits missions). Is that the default for the player version as well?

Ok, will have to re-read the guide to frangibility... };] And yes, player and npc versions of both ships start with fore and aft weapons. After all, whats fair for one is fair for the other. };] It's why I also think player ships should be allowed multiple front lasers just like npcs!

[Smivs]

...I also think player ships should be allowed multiple front lasers just like npcs!

Probably NPCs shouldn't have multiple lasers these days. Since 1.77 NPC lasers are the same as player lasers in terms of strength whereas before they were weaker than the player equivalent. Previously one way of making NPCs as tough as a good player ship was to give them extra lasers, but this is no longer necessary.

[Paradox]

...I also think player ships should be allowed multiple front lasers just like npcs!

Probably NPCs shouldn't have multiple lasers these days. Since 1.77 NPC lasers are the same as player lasers in terms of strength whereas before they were weaker than the player equivalent. Previously one way of making NPCs as tough as a good player ship was to give them extra lasers, but this is no longer necessary.

So, npc lasers were weaker, but are no longer.. good, we have balance... However, some npc ships still have multiple front lasers, which is also good, as we need "boss" type enemies to fight in the game. However, to keep the balance, and give us a fighting chance against multiple enemies, then give that option to players as well. }:] Besides, most of my ships look like they were designed to have 2 or more lasers...
As long as it is kept as an option, then both the purists, and the "not so pure" , should be happy!

[Cody]

However, to keep the balance, and give us a fighting chance against multiple enemies...

If your game is balanced right, you do have a fighting chance against multiple enemies (even against NPCs with multiple fore lasers)!

[Smivs]

It's also worth reminding folks that multiple lasers are not the 'killer app' that people might think, particularly for player ships. For one thing they still overheat at the same rate, so once hot they are hot and no number will overcome that.
Also, lasers are only effective when they actually hit the target. So say you have two beam lasers and the NPC you're tussling with has a single military laser, you won't really have any advantage even if both your lasers are striking him.
And that's the real rub - they probably won't be! Because of spacing and parallax issues it is actually quite unlikely that more than one laser of a multiple array is actually striking the target at any given moment. The others are just wasting energy.
Which is the final point worth making. Lasers use energy, and therefore the more you have the more energy drain you will experience. Not what you need in the heat of battle.

[Paradox]

However, to keep the balance, and give us a fighting chance against multiple enemies...

If your game is balanced right, you do have a fighting chance against multiple enemies (even against NPCs with multiple fore lasers)!

As they stand now, yes.. I routinely fight 3-5 pirates at a time and have been taking the hardest of the bounty contracts (though those can be a bit "exciting"). But if the game were truly balanced, and a group of npcs have the same military lasers, shield and energy enhancments, etc that you do, then it becomes much more of a challenge (like the ToughGuys oxp..). I think that balance should mean that whatever one side has, the other side should have as well. Multiple front lasers are not a game changer if BOTH sides have them...

[Paradox]

It's also worth reminding folks that multiple lasers are not the 'killer app' that people might think, particularly for player ships. For one thing they still overheat at the same rate, so once hot they are hot and no number will overcome that.
Also, lasers are only effective when they actually hit the target. So say you have two beam lasers and the NPC you're tussling with has a single military laser, you won't really have any advantage even if both your lasers are striking him.

Exactly! So this is not a game changer, and does not unbalance the game. };]

And that's the real rub - they probably won't be! Because of spacing and parallax issues it is actually quite unlikely that more than one laser of a multiple array is actually striking the target at any given moment. The others are just wasting energy.

2 points here, I don't fully agree with the parallax issue unless you are putting both lasers clear out on the tips of your "wings". Unless I am mistaken, any shot that hits the "bounding box" of the ship is considered a hit, not just the physical mesh itself. Hence most ships are actually a larger target than they appear.

Second, it's not important if both lasers hit the other ship, only the fact that you are doubling your chances of a hit in a dog fight. Like corkscrewing in a WW1/WW2 dog fight in order to give both guns a chance to hit. If you do manage to get both lasers trained on the target at the same time, that's just a bonus!

Which is the final point worth making. Lasers use energy, and therefore the more you have the more energy drain you will experience. Not what you need in the heat of battle.

Of course, makes perfect sense. Firing 2 lasers will use 2 times the energy. It also gives a good reason to save up and upgrade those energy banks/recharge rates. };]

[cim]

2 points here, I don't fully agree with the parallax issue unless you are putting both lasers clear out on the tips of your "wings". Unless I am mistaken, any shot that hits the "bounding box" of the ship is considered a hit, not just the physical mesh itself. Hence most ships are actually a larger target than they appear.

Collision detection is imperfect in Oolite, but for normal-sized ships in Elite-style shapes, it's a lot closer to "mesh" than "bounding box".

[JD]

If the game was really balanced, we'd all only have a 50/50 chance of surviving a fight with a single pirate, let alone a group of them. I like the fact that there are some tough opponents out there. I actually wish there were some systems, or even entire sectors of the galaxy, that were dangerous to enter.

[Tricky]

2 points here, I don't fully agree with the parallax issue unless you are putting both lasers clear out on the tips of your "wings". Unless I am mistaken, any shot that hits the "bounding box" of the ship is considered a hit, not just the physical mesh itself. Hence most ships are actually a larger target than they appear.

Collision detection is imperfect in Oolite, but for normal-sized ships in Elite-style shapes, it's a lot closer to "mesh" than "bounding box".

That is why I hate going up against Kraits and Mambas. Their profile makes them difficult to hit in a dog fight when you're on their six. Easier to hit them in sniper mode from range.

[Diziet Sma]

That is why I hate going up against Kraits and Mambas. Their profile makes them difficult to hit in a dog fight when you're on their six. Easier to hit them in sniper mode from range.

Same goes for Imperial Couriers and Pitvipers.. I've lost track of the number of times my laser has passed between the fuselages of a Pitviper from the front or rear..

[Diziet Sma]

I think that balance should mean that whatever one side has, the other side should have as well. Multiple front lasers are not a game changer if BOTH sides have them...

Since, with 1.77, we now finally have weapons parity, (and Tough Guys if you want more challenge) to me it would make more sense to remove the additional forward lasers from ships that currently have them.. multiple forward lasers were a work-around for a problem that no longer exists.

[Paradox]

Since, with 1.77, we now finally have weapons parity, (and Tough Guys if you want more challenge) to me it would make more sense to remove the additional forward lasers from ships that currently have them.. multiple forward lasers were a work-around for a problem that no longer exists.

Tough Guys:
"N.B. This OXP may not be suitable for use with Oolite v1.77. An updated version will be available soon."

And why take something away from the game and force all the oxp authors to remodel and rewrite their oxps...? Seems easier to add another option to the game that that has been asked for multiple times in the past...

[Smivs]

Re ToughGuys, this update is almost ready - the sticking point is actually a compatibility issue with my Smivs'Shipset I hope to have it ready very soon.

As for the lasers, I really can't see an arguemant for messing with the core game. Players can choose which OXPs to add and if they choose ships with multiple lasers (I for one don't!), then they should accept what they are doing is down to them.
It may be that now we have laser parity some OXP authors will amend their work in this area, and I would support that, but ultimately it is up to them to adapt their OXPs and up to players to decide what to add to the core game. Remember you could also 'tweak' any ship OXPs you have to remove excess lasers.
'Adding an option to the core game' of multiple lasers is not wise and not wanted by the majority. It takes us into one of those pointless arms-race situations, breaks one of the profound principles of the game and would probably need a serious re-write of some of the core code - something the devs have said many times they are not interested in doing.

[cim]

would probably need a serious re-write of some of the core code

Indeed. The NPC version takes a lot of extra code itself, and adds a lot of "except ifs" to otherwise neat and tidy program flow. (It also makes things more difficult for OXP writers who need to know what forward weapon a ship has, because the "obvious" code may return "none")

The player code would be worse - weapons purchase, effects on reticle sensitivity, HUD dials, scripting support, etc. all would need adjustment.

It would be a major piece of work, and with there being no consensus that it's a feature worth implementing, there are other major pieces of work (many of which also open up new areas for OXP exploration) that are higher priorities for me. This may or may not be true for anyone else writing code, of course.

It's probably also worth noting that you can theoretically simulate multiple player forward lasers - though I've not tried this so I don't know how well it would work in practice - using 1.77's OXP scripting support.