Station rotation & artificial gravity

Galileo · Post by **Galileo** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:24 am

I just discovered the SpinCalc and apparently a station with a radius of 588m like the Coriolis would need to rotate at 1.23rpm. This is a lot slower than what it currently is. Slowing the rotation to that rate would be more realistic but would make docking a lot easier. So what's more important, realism or game balance?

TGHC · Post by **TGHC** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:40 am

I've often wondered why the stations rotate at all, navigation bouys and witchpoint beacons don't, but it is a major theme of the gameplay so I wouldn't want it changed, manual docking is not really difficult.

On my old Amstrad docking without a computer was far more hazadous than in Oolite, I don't think I've ever bombed out in Oolite, but the original version was very much a lottery even with practice.

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:51 am

I think the rotation is fine is as it is. The fact that it spins at all gives enough feeling of realism and solidity to the clearly game driven aspect of rotational docking. Realism isn't something I would associate with Oolite (or original elite for that matter), surely the aim of the developers is a believable and immersive playing environment not an attempt at mathmatical correctness... besides that's what Frontier is for

xaotik · Post by **xaotik** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:52 am

TGHC wrote:
I've often wondered why the stations rotate at all, navigation bouys and witchpoint beacons don't, but it is a major theme of the gameplay so I wouldn't want it changed, manual docking is not really difficult.

Supposedly to create the sense of gravity in the interior via centrifugal force (part of the Coriolis effect). Actually, the bouys do appear to rotate - not sure about the beacons.

Also... if they didn't rotate they wouldn't be named Coriolis, come to think of it. :-)

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:04 am

The centrifugal effect is not the same as coriolis force. Coriolis force is an effect of the interaction between gravity and centrifugal effect.

xaotik · Post by **xaotik** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:10 am

Ahruman wrote:
The centrifugal effect is not the same as coriolis force. Coriolis force is an effect of the interaction between gravity and centrifugal effect.

Right you are - what I should of typed was "with an added side-effect of Coriolis forces", which is one of the reasons according to what I read that rotation is not a practical method for creating artificial gravity.

Murgh · Post by **Murgh** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:11 am

yes, habitats that want to simulate gravity must rotate. also the high rotational rate is due to the organisms living the outermost levels who originate from large planets and wouldn't survive otherwise

I think part of what made docking so much more difficult in Og.Elite was that you could never come to a complete stop, and the vector graphics made it so hard to judge (until too late) if your angle was good enough.

JensAyton · Post by **JensAyton** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:40 am

xaotik wrote:
Right you are - what I should of typed was "with an added side-effect of Coriolis forces", which is one of the reasons according to what I read that rotation is not a practical method for creating artificial gravity.

There are problems with rotation, although those problems aren’t realy coriolis either. The biggest practical issue would be that moving turnwise would make you heavier, and moving widdershins would make you lighter. For this to be a real problem, you’d have to be moving quite fast.

TedJ · Post by **TedJ** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:03 pm

I'll definitely err on the side of game balance on this one. Besides, the reason the stations spin in Oolite (and OG.elite) is because of that scene in Kubrik's 2001, the film which has defined SF film (and game) making ever since.

As long as I'm not pelted with bones by irate monkeys, I'll live with it...

Dilbert · Post by **Dilbert** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:38 am

As long as I'm not pelted with bones by irate monkeys, I'll live with it...

Coming soon: The Irate Monkey mission!

Post by **winston** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:09 pm

Ahruman wrote:
The biggest practical issue would be that moving turnwise would make you heavier, and moving widdershins would make you lighter. For this to be a real problem, you’d have to be moving quite fast.

This happens (or used to happen) on Earth when Concorde was flying. As a Concorde passenger, you would get measurably (but not noticably) lighter on an eastbound flight, especially if the flight was near the equator.

The big problem with Coriolis space stations is that the sides are flat. If you were any distance away from the centre of a side, the 'ground' would feel tilted. Rotating stations really need to be cylindrical.

xaotik · Post by **xaotik** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:44 pm

winston wrote:
The big problem with Coriolis space stations is that the sides are flat. If you were any distance away from the centre of a side, the 'ground' would feel tilted. Rotating stations really need to be cylindrical.

Maybe the flat sides are just armour plating and storage areas while the actual living quarters are in a cylindrical inner-section...?

Arexack_Heretic · Post by **Arexack_Heretic** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:00 pm

The literature clearly mentions the faces as having seperate topology and functions.
Besides water needs somewhere to flow down to.
Probably the streets etc feel tilted, but buildings will most certainly will be. (So that your pen won't roll off your desk)
Just like in an Earth mountain town.

lex_talionis · Post by **lex_talionis** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:31 pm

nice imagery! all these high rise flats leaning into the centre of the plain... lol!

Selezen · Post by **Selezen** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:39 pm

Remember that people live on the faces that face towards the planet and away from the planet too - how do the forces affect them?

Alternatively, consider the following diagram:

The red lines are the gravitational 'floors' of the station. The outermost red line is the outer plane of the main station (1km diameter) and is where the main population of the station live. There can be one or two more floors there too, separated by maybe 30m from floor to ceiling.

The other red lines are the 'floors' of the other two facets, i.e. the side facing the planet and the side facing away from the planet. They are arranged in concentric rings again about 30m or so apart. The rear facet can have these floors all the way to the centre (depending on how much space there is) but the planetfacing facet would obviously have the docking bays and related equipment in the middle.

It would theoretically be possible for a person to thus walk all round the circumference of the station, but retains Dark Wheel / Imprint accuracy be requiring a shuttle or something to fly between the three different areas.

EDIT: Dammit! four messages appeared between me starting to write this and actually posting it!!

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Station rotation & artificial gravity

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Station rotation & artificial gravity