Split: Difficulty for new players

[Disembodied]

The sun is not a selectable option with the basic compass. Off-lane rock hermits also don't get any ASC beacons without OXPs, but the player might occasionally be able to pick them out visually - especially if they use someone going that way to line up - and want to go to investigate. (Similarly, random flickers of laser light beyond scanner range don't generate beacons either)

True ... the sun could be added to the basic compass, though. Off-lane Hermits/laser flashes etc. are a bit trickier, I grant you (especially if they are a considerable distance off-lane) – but perhaps the player should be expected to spend time flying to these locations, like the NPCs do. If players received an ASC location for each Rock Hermit the first time they visit (appearing on the ASC as "RH1", "RH2" etc. in order of discovery, maybe?) that creates a payoff for visiting, and adds a little sense of exploration. And there's always the injectors, for the impatient, although of course these come with a fuel cost (possibly a good thing).

[Norby]

We are searching a solution to keep players in space lanes only so the limited torus drive is not the best idea imho. Players can try to circumvent: if limited to valid targets then players install OXP stations and go through them, if excluding these also, then players find another workaround and finally too many limits results less fun.

Much more logical if pirates lay mass-lock nets. I like this idea but to cover the main tube thickly enough to ususally prevent crossing with injectors before a pirate group can arrive exceed the current limit of space objects in a system (2048).

If I may step over the rules of core game then I can make a net of Scout Drones which detect traders visually around 4x scanner range and alert pirates. These can reduce the number of required masslockers greatly.

Scout Asteroids also a good idea from Disembodied, I imagine these with Gravity Scanner (5-10x range depending on target mass) which directs pirate groups in low governments and nobody knows which rocks holds scanners.

These should be enough to traders stick in lanes, else expectations will be confirmed by experience ("press space" ).

But for more fun stationary cover should be around witchpoints only (with two safe exit to planet and sun cleared by GalCop). In the middle of lanes may be holes or less enduring pirates so if a brave pilot constantly try to escape into free space at various places towarding the planet and return to the lane when pirates coming then can be lucky a few times, sooner in better governments.

[Zireael]

I've been playing a bit with this, by just limiting myself to only using the torus to fly towards a destination on the compass. I picture a circle, half the diameter of the compass itself, and as long as the compass target is green and within that circle, I allow myself to use the torus. So far, it hasn't made any significant difference to my game. The only thing it's stopped me from doing - a bit - is using the torus to quickly shuffle between floating cargo pods that I want to snaffle up; even there, all I have to do is target the pod, and then set the compass to my current target, and zap, I'm away.

What it does do is make it a lot more time-consuming to avoid the lane. I can't pitch 90° up and scoot off the lane, and then take a long parabolic arc through empty space and round to the station. It's not impossible to go off-lane; it just takes a lot more time to get there, and if I want to stay off-lane all the way in, I have to spend a lot of time travelling.

It does change my attitude to the torus drive: it becomes something I have to be much more deliberate about. It's not just, "Scanner's clear, hit the button" any more; I have to consciously check my compass, set my heading, and then hit the button.

So far, I have to say, I quite like it. It feels more like navigation, rather than just flying really fast (you have to get used to not steering around during torus travel). Of course, it has other effects: it makes the ASC a much more important piece of kit, and without it the player can only use the torus to head to the planet, or to the sun, or to the station once they get close enough. It means that any off-lane destination has to be marked on the ASC (which - so far, in my game - they have been). It also means (I imagine: I haven't tried this!) that the player can't use the torus to chase down the Constrictor (not a bad thing).

How about, we make this change to torus drive, and we also make fuel injectors primable, and for further reduction in 'nothing happens' bits, introduce some sort of Improved Fuel Injectors (primable ofc) which allow us to go at 1/2 torus speed (5000 units IIRC) but at large fuel costs.

[cim]

but perhaps the player should be expected to spend time flying to these locations, like the NPCs do.

I think the problem is just how long it would take. A Rock Hermit 500km away is at about the limit of visibility - you can think "ah, that's what that NPC is heading for". On torus drive - once you've cleared the NPC's masslock - that's about 1 minute's travel. It'll take the NPC 30 minutes to get there. It has the patience for that, but I don't think the player will. It's four minutes on injectors - bearable, but it'll also cost you most of a tank.

And it doesn't really solve "torus towards sun for a little way, then switch to the planet" as a means of getting off-lane. The limitations on destination feel rather "point of interest" to me...

Switching from "torus" to the older 8-bit "inter-space jump" would make it easier - advance the clock by the time it would have taken to cross that distance manually at high speed (maybe only injector speed?), and allow other groups in range the option to jump to the same destination. Jumps could then either be towards compass targets, or just generally forwards (to a fixed maximum distance, perhaps 100km, interrupted by large masses on the way?). We could then even let NPCs with no reason to be stealthy make their own jumps and give the player the option to intercept, perhaps requiring a bit of equipment. ... and, just like the original Elite, making an "inter-space jump" in an Anarchy is likely to pull down a whole bunch of pirates on to your position. That would be a huge change in terms of the feel of the game, though, and I'm not at all convinced by it.

Much more logical if pirates lay mass-lock nets. I like this idea but to cover the main tube thickly enough to ususally prevent crossing with injectors before a pirate group can arrive exceed the current limit of space objects in a system (2048).

If they have the resources to lay that sort of net - even just a partial one - and not have it cleared out by the local police or vulnerable to being destroyed by a trader's escorts before the pirates can show up, they can probably just blockade the witchpoint. And, admittedly, in some systems they can probably just blockade the witchpoint...

[Norby]

advance the clock by the time it would have taken to cross that distance manually

So drop torus and bind the jump button to the existing 16x Time Acceleration Factor in green alert (and maybe 2x in other alerts). It is a good solution imho, I can accept it as a return to the original Elite.

If they have the resources to lay that sort of net - even just a partial one - and not have it cleared out by the local police or vulnerable to being destroyed by a trader's escorts before the pirates can show up, they can probably just blockade the witchpoint. And, admittedly, in some systems they can probably just blockade the witchpoint...

True, stationary parts need defenders, so I think better if not a line of rocks layed but there are some centre, the most frequent is near the witchpoint and a few other near lanes. All of them contain defender ships and many asteroids with hidden scanners. The space between these are patrolled by evenly spreaded drones. In this way a not so large number of pirate groups enough to defend these: can jump/inject to the attacked drone and can attack detected out-of-lane ships.

To keep reasonably down the number of centres and drones I think the best way is to allow extended detection ranges on them, it follows that is not a core solution but a nice OXP plan.

[cim]

advance the clock by the time it would have taken to cross that distance manually

So drop torus and bind the jump button to the existing 16x Time Acceleration Factor in green alert (and maybe 2x in other alerts). It is a good solution imho, I can accept it as a return to the original Elite.

TAF itself has the major disadvantage that it doesn't work - we could perhaps get a working one as high as 4x on reasonably modern hardware, but I'd rather use the extra processing time it would require to add more entities.

This would be an "instant"-seeming discontinuous jump with a little clock adjustment on arrival (similar to the one on leaving witchspace) to explain how other groups were able to track and intercept you.

[Cody]

Switching from "torus" to the older 8-bit "inter-space jump" would make it easier - advance the clock by the time it would have taken to cross that distance manually at high speed (maybe only injector speed?), and allow other groups in range the option to jump to the same destination. [snip] This would be an "instant"-seeming discontinuous jump with a little clock adjustment on arrival (similar to the one on leaving witchspace) to explain how other groups were able to track and intercept you.

Crikey... something to ponder there, Admiral.

[spara]

I have to say that I mostly like and prefer the current system with spacelanes and huge amounts of empty space. The space is big and it really should be quite empty. I also see nothing wrong in skipping outside the lane and torusing to the destination. If someone does not like that then maybe they should not use it, but please don't take it away.

One thing I would consider would be giving some npcs a limited torus and allow them to manouver out of the line and use the torus there. Not all npcs, but a few to give the player an illusion, he's/she's not the only one using it.

[Zireael]

This would be an "instant"-seeming discontinuous jump with a little clock adjustment on arrival (similar to the one on leaving witchspace) to explain how other groups were able to track and intercept you.

That's a GREAT idea.

One thing I would consider would be giving some npcs a limited torus and allow them to manouver out of the line and use the torus there. Not all npcs, but a few to give the player an illusion, he's/she's not the only one using it.

I like this one if we keep the torus, but the discontinuous jump is much better than torus because it's not mass-locked.

[Disembodied]

I think the problem is just how long it would take. A Rock Hermit 500km away is at about the limit of visibility - you can think "ah, that's what that NPC is heading for". On torus drive - once you've cleared the NPC's masslock - that's about 1 minute's travel. It'll take the NPC 30 minutes to get there. It has the patience for that, but I don't think the player will. It's four minutes on injectors - bearable, but it'll also cost you most of a tank.

And it doesn't really solve "torus towards sun for a little way, then switch to the planet" as a means of getting off-lane. The limitations on destination feel rather "point of interest" to me...

You're right - and I didn't think of the sun-then-planet exploit. Bugger! That felt like I was on to something there ...

Switching from "torus" to the older 8-bit "inter-space jump" would make it easier - advance the clock by the time it would have taken to cross that distance manually at high speed (maybe only injector speed?), and allow other groups in range the option to jump to the same destination. Jumps could then either be towards compass targets, or just generally forwards (to a fixed maximum distance, perhaps 100km, interrupted by large masses on the way?). We could then even let NPCs with no reason to be stealthy make their own jumps and give the player the option to intercept, perhaps requiring a bit of equipment. ... and, just like the original Elite, making an "inter-space jump" in an Anarchy is likely to pull down a whole bunch of pirates on to your position. That would be a huge change in terms of the feel of the game, though, and I'm not at all convinced by it.

Yes, same here: I think this might be a step too far towards player-centrism. Admittedly, the problem exists because of the totally player-centric torus, but the only way around that is a TAF (or TAF-equivalent mini-jump), crucially though without any masslocking - which is such a major game mechanic that getting rid of it would almost mean producing a new game. It could be done, if, say, each mini-jump took ~15 seconds to wind up, and maybe required a little bit of player fiddling-about to start - and if it didn't work when the player was moving, or taking damage: that way the game wouldn't need the masslock to keep the player pinned by hostile ships. But it would be a massive change.

Much more logical if pirates lay mass-lock nets. I like this idea but to cover the main tube thickly enough to ususally prevent crossing with injectors before a pirate group can arrive exceed the current limit of space objects in a system (2048).

If they have the resources to lay that sort of net - even just a partial one - and not have it cleared out by the local police or vulnerable to being destroyed by a trader's escorts before the pirates can show up, they can probably just blockade the witchpoint. And, admittedly, in some systems they can probably just blockade the witchpoint...

Masslock nets are probably the easiest way to go here: the only change it would require would be a bit of AI, to adjust a net-pirate's behaviour: keep the player masslocked, and don't engage until other ships arrive and the odds improve (if the player could see the pirate broadcasting a signal to the rest of the pack, too, that would add to the effect: plus it would give a swift and accurate player a possible escape route from the net).

A net would take a bit of effort to lay, but it wouldn't need to be more than partial, and it wouldn't need to be always there: there would be a chance that a player running off-lane might get caught in a net, and that chance would be something the player would have to factor in when making that choice. In e.g. a Dictatorship system there might only be a 20% chance of a net being there at all, and even if it's there, the player might get lucky and dodge it.

Laying a net wold be a lot easier than blockading a witchpoint: you'll avoid meeting big, well-defended convoys, and the ships who do stray into the net will probably be solitary, and carrying something valuable that needs to get somewhere in a hurry. The prime locations for the net would be off either end of the lane: near to the witchpoint, or near to the station (but obviously not too near).

[Zireael]

and if it didn't work when the player was moving, or taking damage: that way the game wouldn't need the masslock to keep the player pinned by hostile ships.

That part is so obvious I forgot to mention it, so how about an easy change: keep the torus, halve its speed, masslock only happens when ships are hostile?

t could be done, if, say, each mini-jump took ~15 seconds to wind up

That's a good idea.

[cim]

I think this might be a step too far towards player-centrism.

That surprises me - if there's one thing I think this idea has going for it it's that it would be relatively easy to give this sort of fast-travel drive to NPCs as well, and have the player be able to see them use it as something other than a result of their actions occasionally.

Laying a net wold be a lot easier than blockading a witchpoint: you'll avoid meeting big, well-defended convoys, and the ships who do stray into the net will probably be solitary, and carrying something valuable that needs to get somewhere in a hurry. The prime locations for the net would be off either end of the lane: near to the witchpoint, or near to the station (but obviously not too near).

Perhaps, though there's no rule that says the blockade ships have to engage every freighter that comes through. I would put them only in those systems which are far enough away from more civilised space that you're not going to get tough packs of bounty hunters coming in, though.

Let's see about the numbers... near-full net coverage of a sphere 100km in radius from the witchpoint would need about 40 ships, minus a few if you skip covering the lane itself. Shrink it to 50km radius (any closer and it's definitely a blockade, not a net!) and a bit over 50% coverage and you can do it with 8 ships (at the corners of a cube). You'd need injectors on each ship, or you won't be able to catch up - a trader in a fast ship can charge at the net ship when masslocked, and be leaving the net region at near full conventional speed as they desperately try to get out of the way so that the trader can't pursue "clear the witchpoint" and "destroy the lone pirate ship to break masslock" objectives at the same time. Injectors let you reach the scene in under a minute, and also make it much easier to dodge but keep the trader mass-locked.

Meanwhile, eight fast injector-equipped ships (plus a cargo hauler of some sort to actually pick up the loot, and maybe a couple of escorts for it) is still enough to make a fairly convincing blockade if they're all in one place - that's bigger than most major pirate packs already. Have the cargo hauler and escorts safely hanging back until there's something to loot, and you can even run away if anything particularly nasty comes in.

[Disembodied]

I think this might be a step too far towards player-centrism.

That surprises me - if there's one thing I think this idea has going for it it's that it would be relatively easy to give this sort of fast-travel drive to NPCs as well, and have the player be able to see them use it as something other than a result of their actions occasionally.

Ah! I hadn't thought that this would be applied to NPCs as well. It would be a huge change to the look and feel of the game ... ships wouldn't cruise in from the Witchpoint any more: they'd just sit, and count down, and blip! jump some distance ahead, then repeat. If everyone is doing it, that might mean that players seldom met anyone who wasn't actively lurking or patrolling. It might seem very ... disjointed, I think. But if it was available to all, maybe that would be worth it.

Let's see about the numbers... near-full net coverage of a sphere 100km in radius from the witchpoint would need about 40 ships, minus a few if you skip covering the lane itself. Shrink it to 50km radius (any closer and it's definitely a blockade, not a net!) and a bit over 50% coverage and you can do it with 8 ships (at the corners of a cube). You'd need injectors on each ship, or you won't be able to catch up - a trader in a fast ship can charge at the net ship when masslocked, and be leaving the net region at near full conventional speed as they desperately try to get out of the way so that the trader can't pursue "clear the witchpoint" and "destroy the lone pirate ship to break masslock" objectives at the same time. Injectors let you reach the scene in under a minute, and also make it much easier to dodge but keep the trader mass-locked.

Meanwhile, eight fast injector-equipped ships (plus a cargo hauler of some sort to actually pick up the loot, and maybe a couple of escorts for it) is still enough to make a fairly convincing blockade if they're all in one place - that's bigger than most major pirate packs already. Have the cargo hauler and escorts safely hanging back until there's something to loot, and you can even run away if anything particularly nasty comes in.

It might take a bit of experimentation to see what makes the best net - whether it's better to be deeper (harder to run through) or wider (to catch more ships), for example. The nature of the system might affect this, too: systems which are a long way from most other systems - where ships jumping in will be likely to have less fuel - will mean that it's harder for inbound ships to inject their way through the net.

[cim]

Ah! I hadn't thought that this would be applied to NPCs as well. It would be a huge change to the look and feel of the game ... ships wouldn't cruise in from the Witchpoint any more: they'd just sit, and count down, and blip! jump some distance ahead, then repeat. If everyone is doing it, that might mean that players seldom met anyone who wasn't actively lurking or patrolling. It might seem very ... disjointed, I think. But if it was available to all, maybe that would be worth it.

Probably most NPCs would continue to cruise by default - you'd lose a lot of stealth by doing it, I think, so pirates and hunters wouldn't do it except to strike (and maybe to return home if they were confident of their safety), and traders might prefer to try to sneak through rather than signalling their exact position to every pirate for hundreds of kilometres. Couriers, I think, would probably use it a lot though, and maybe some sorts of patrols, at least to reach the patrol start point quickly.

The "disjointed" bit worries me as well, though.

[Zireael]

The "disjointed" bit worries me as well, though.

The "disjointed" bit can be easily solved by a) giving the NPCs a variation on the existing torus b) making it not only limited to certain roles, but also pretty rare