Oolite Bulletins

I've tried the LongRangeScanner.oxp, but it didn't meet my expectations. To me, it feels more like a cheat: You activate it, the game pauses, you are presented with a complete list of all objects in the system, and this list is never faulty. Also, there is absolutely no cost of using it.

The option "use as target" would be useful, but it does only work if the selected object is within the range of the standard "short range scanner". The object "place ship near object" feels like cheating, it doesn't even take time, you get "teleported" there instanteously.

So, what I would like to have would be a Long Range Scanner (LRS) that feels more realistic, and which also has some cost and requires some skill to use. So here is what I imagine:

01. The Long Range Scanner doesn't stop game time / pause the game. When you use it, the game continues, so using it in combat or while flying through an asteroid field would not be wise

02. The Long Range Scanner needs energy to operate. The energy usage depends on the scan intensity and size of the area that is being scanned, and should of course be balanced for gameplay. So for example intense scans could use so much energy that they are only feasible when the ship is equipped with an extra energy unit, and even then the energy should drop, allowing only a few minutes of scanning.

03. The Long Range Scanner is not perfect. It may give false results, probably showing false positives or not detecting something that is actually there. The more energy is used on the scanned area, the more information will be shown, and the probabilty for scanning errors is reduced.

04. Stealth Ships / Ships equipped with Cloaking Devices should be (much) much harder to detect.

05. As mentioned before, the area that is scanned should be adjustable. That is, both the size and the region. Or, to be more realistic, perhaps the scanned region should always be relative to the players ship, e.g. "scan the region in front of the ship up to a distance of 100.000 km". The bigger the selected region, the more energy is needed. Maximum size: whole system.

06. It would be nice if the scanner would display it's results in a way similar to the standard "short range scanner" (SRS). Clicking on a contact with the mouse could somehow show all available info about the selected object, e.g. in another window.
Examples on how I think the visual representation might look like can be found here:
06.01. http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1994 ... ale3d1.png
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9491/h ... ale3d2.png
(from: http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/show ... p%29/page5 )
06.02. http://www.planetaryvisions.com/Project.php?pid=2229
06.03. http://www.eso.org/public/images/eso0303c/
06.04. http://www.shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15637
06.05. an animated example (video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPwDyUp0YAc
06.06. another video with animations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XCqrUdAzJw

07. Since scanning is done in real time and uses energy, there should also be a some memory / scan log that stores a certain amount of scans (or a certain time / duration) for later analysis, so one can examine it without having the energy-expensive scanner run.

08. Perhaps it would be cool if there where "active" and "passive" scans: passive scans giving much less information (since they only read what is emitted by the objects themselves) and active scans giving more information (depending on the energy used), but being detectable by other ships that are within the scanned area, thus revealing to them the position of the player's ship and probably attracting them when scanning actively (or, if they are fugitives and you have to hunt them, making them run away).

10. Scanning should not work instantly, but take some time, at least for active scans, since the scanning signal sent needs to travel the way to the scanned objects and back to the ship.

11. Scanners could have different scanning modes, which can also be combined (energy use adds up then, of course). Information that can be obtained by the long range scanner could for example be something like this:
11.01. Mass Detection: Detects objects based on their mass. Sun, Gas Giants, Planets, Moons are detected even by passive scanning, large objects (asteroids, big ships, star bases) with lower probability and based on their distance. Active Scanning makes detection of lower masses possible. Since it's only mass that is detected, the type of object cannot be determined by this kind of scan alone.
11.02. Energy Detection: Detects objects by their emitted energy. Different kinds of energy can help in identifying the object:
11.02.01. Suns can easily be detected (identified and localized) by their radiation even through passive scanning
11.02.02. Planets and moons also often have some kind of radiation that makes it pretty easy (even through passive scanning) to determine the kind of object (compare to: Star Trek Planetary Classes, like class M)
11.02.03. Machines (Ships, star bases, escape capsules, some containers) emit different kinds of energy; depending on distance and kind of energy and the emitting devices' size (e.g. bigger ships / mightier / dirtier engines are easier to detect), even a passive scan can give valuable information:
11.02.03.01. Engines (different kinds: Normal, Jump Drive, Hyperdrive charging up, Afterburner, Q-Boosters, ...): Passive scans can perhaps determine kind of propulsion being used, active scans might be able to determine manufacturer of the engine by comparing the signature with a database...?
11.02.03.02. Weapons: Lasers and Plasma balls emit pretty large amounts of energy and are widely visible even through passive scans, making detection of fights rather easy? Active scans help distinguish the kind of weapon used (military laser / mining laser / pulse laser / beam laser / plasma cannon ...). Missiles emit engine radiation and perhaps some radiation from their targetting system (like active radar)... but missiles should be treated rather as ships than as weapons with regard to the Long Range Scanner.
11.02.03.04. Scanners: If a ship has Long Range Scanners active (active scanning), every ship within the scanned area has a chance to detect the emitted radiation / the scanning ship.
11.02.03.05. Signals / Communication: Some ships might send signals (like communication signals, distress signals, ...) which can be detected. E.g. some containers might constantly send some signal with their position and probably info on their content?
11.02.03.06. Shields: Shields emit energy, but they also prevent sensors to penetrate them and thus they make it hard to scan what is inside the shield / the content of the shielded ship. Active scanning might be able to determine the manufacturer of the shield, thus giving information about the ship.
11.02.04. Explosions are widely detectable, but have a short duration. A long range scanner might be set to automatically inform the pilot if an explosion is detected within the system (?).
11.03. Material: Through active scanning, the long range scanner can determine the materials of which an object consists. Simple examples: asteroids -> rocks / ice / minerals; ships: metal...
11.04. Visual analysis: some kind of super-telescope allows to inspect the objects visuals from a distance. A "overview mode" tries to get a snapshot of every object that has been detected by the other components of the LRS (e.g. through Mass Detection) and attaches / includes the image to the object's information.
11.05. Wormholes: I think that a wormhole emits large amounts of energy in an unique mix, thus making it possible to detect them with passive scanners within the whole system. If the ship is equipped with a wormhole scanner, an active scan can give the information of the wormhole scanner even over long ranges.

12. Database comparison: Perhaps, one could purchase databases against which scans can be compared in order to determine which objects match such a scan signature. The ships' database automatically get's updated when targets detected by long range scanners get identified by the standard (short range) scanner.

13. The player can set any object detected by the long range scanner as a target or compass destination. As long as the long range scanner is actively tracking the target, the compass / target will be updated, too. If not, the target might no longer be there when the player arrives.

14. The long range scanner can be reached over the map (first press F5 then some other key combination (shift-n?)).

Well, these are my thoughts on the LRS so far. I already thought about implementing it myself as an oxp. But since I've got almost no experience in programming OXP's (but I've got programming experience, although not much yet in JavaScript), I'd really appreciate some comments and tips on whether and how the above points could be implemented, and how difficult this would be. Also, comments about the concept and suggestions on how LRS should work are welcome! Oh, and if someone else would like to implement that, that would be perfectly fine with me, too )

EDIT: added another animated example for visualization

Hi GGShinobi, and welcome aboard.

GGShinobi wrote:

... it feels more like a cheat: You activate it, the game pauses, you are presented with a complete list of all objects in the system, and this list is never faulty. Also, there is absolutely no cost of using it.

To be fair, this OXP was originally created as a testing tool (as I recall) - hence why it seems like a cheat.

El Viejo wrote:

To be fair, this OXP was originally created as a testing tool (as I recall) - hence why it seems like a cheat.

Hello El Viejo, and thanks for the welcome and incredibly fast reply!

I have to apologize, I didn't want to insult anyone. And I also realize that the oxp has still version number 0.3, so it's far from being complete. Well, I admit I was a little disappointed when I finally managed to save enough money to buy the Long Range Scanner and then saw how it worked But I really like the idea behind it, and that's why I posted my suggestions.

GGShinobi wrote:

I have to apologize, I didn't want to insult anyone.

No need... Okti won't be insulted. Some of the tools that test-pilots/OXP authors use are awesome (like my old test-ship)... but shouldn't be on general release.
As for your suggestions... someone may run with them (or you could try altering the OXP yourself... heh).

GGShinobi wrote:

08. Perhaps it would be cool if there where "active" and "passive" scans: passive scans giving much less information (since they only read what is emitted by the objects themselves) and active scans giving more information (depending on the energy used), but being detectable by other ships that are within the scanned area, thus revealing to them the position of the player's ship and probably attracting them when scanning actively (or, if they are fugitives and you have to hunt them, making them run away).

When I started to read, I immediately thought about submarine warfare active and passive sonar, and then I reached 08 and found that you were wa-a-a-y ahead of me

Active sonar usually delivers longer range but poorer quality information than does well-analysed passive sonar. RL navies invest a lot of time in knowing all about the acoustic signatures of ships (both enemy and allied) that they collect with passive sonar arrays. It's possible for them to differentiate between individual ships of the same build class, so a submarine will often know which destroyer is hunting it.

Active sonar is a much blunter instrument, though. Certainly, "going active" ought to attract any hostile low-life within range of the scanner, and maybe an implementation might actually create some HL-L to predate on the inquisitive player. Perhaps a long-range active ping should only return a mass/size estimate and a direction, rather than detailed target intelligence?

G'day, GGShinobi, and welcome!

Wow, I can see you've really put some thought into this.. well done.

I too was disappointed with the LRS when I found how it worked. I love the sound of what you propose, and all I have to say is go for it! Sure, you may be biting off more than you think you can chew, but there is no shortage of friendly help and advice available here, and you may even come across someone to collaborate with. A good number of OXPs are the combined work of 2,3 or even more people, and your idea is one with a lot going for it. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if someone steps up to assist.

Before you start hacking on the original, check out the re-release version of Long Range Scanner:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12341

...It has extra features, though admittedly still of the cheating/testing-tools nature, but might be helpful for editing things further.

Thank you all for your replies!

Switeck wrote:

Before you start hacking on the original, check out the re-release version of Long Range Scanner:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12341

...It has extra features, though admittedly still of the cheating/testing-tools nature, but might be helpful for editing things further.

That's great, thanks, I will check it out!
In the meantime, any suggestions about how the LRS could be implemented in Oolite (since I have almost no experience yet) would be appreciated!

Especially if someone has experience with visual representation, I've never done anything like that

Switeck wrote:

Before you start hacking on the original, check out the re-release version of Long Range Scanner:
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12341

...It has extra features, though admittedly still of the cheating/testing-tools nature, but might be helpful for editing things further.

I checked it out (though I had to cheat and make it's price much lower in order to get it), and I actually had pretty much fun! Well, It's a completely different kind of gameplay, much more arcade-like. (At least the way I used it). Everything works much faster with it. You can get to the action instantly, and the menu is quite comfortable. I hunted down some fugitives (until I met one which had really bad-ass turrets and ripped me apart), and explored the Level 15-system in Galaxy 1, using the "Thargoid Hyperdrive". I discovered some Jump Gates there and used them, it was a little bit like a spoiler, so I forced myself to quit

But as with the older version, this doesn't feel like a Long Range Scanner to me - more like a quick simulator inside the game. So I guess I'll have to try to implement an LRS myself. But I will try to reuse as much code from it as possible, I'm sure this will be a great help!

What is the preferred way for collaborative programming of OXP's? Is something like github being used? I think I could implement many of the features that I mentioned, but when it comes to graphics I'm a complete noob (and I've got the feeling that I don't have a talent for that, too)

Back again, with more questions:

GGShinobi wrote:

11.02.03.06. Shields: Shields emit energy, but they also prevent sensors to penetrate them and thus they make it hard to scan what is inside the shield / the content of the shielded ship. Active scanning might be able to determine the manufacturer of the shield, thus giving information about the ship.

Shielded Ships: With regards to the planned functionality of the LRS, it would be good if ships could choose whether or not they want them to be active. Is it possible to raise / lower shields somehow? This would give the game a new tactical component.

GGShinobi wrote:

11.02.03.01. Engines (different kinds: Normal, Jump Drive, Hyperdrive charging up, Afterburner, Q-Boosters, ...): Passive scans can perhaps determine kind of propulsion being used, active scans might be able to determine manufacturer of the engine by comparing the signature with a database...?

Detecing Engine Emissions: This one is similar to my question about shielded ships: it would be a tactical component if one could shut down the engines. E.g. Pirates trying to ambush someone could shut down both their shields and their engines and hide within an asteroid field. I also stumbled upon this topic here, which discusses silent running/engine shutdown: http://bb.aegidian.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11682
But according to them, implementing that would be hard / not possible. Is that still the case?

GGShinobi wrote:

11.02.03. Machines (Ships, star bases, escape capsules, some containers) emit different kinds of energy; depending on distance and kind of energy and the emitting devices' size (e.g. bigger ships / mightier / dirtier engines are easier to detect), even a passive scan can give valuable information:

Btw, with "dirty" engines I meant engines like the one of the Llama: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Llama (so the radiation would suddenly become "the Llama's pilot's problem") I think that would be funny!

GGShinobi wrote:

Shielded Ships: With regards to the planned functionality of the LRS, it would be good if ships could choose whether or not they want them to be active. Is it possible to raise / lower shields somehow? This would give the game a new tactical component.

NPCs don't actually have shields in Oolite. On the other hand, hull hits on an NPC don't cause systems damage, so it's not completely one-sided. (There are OXPs which change both of those, of course)

Making OXP equipment to disable the player's shields in exchange for some other benefit would be possible, though.

GGShinobi wrote:

But according to them, implementing that would be hard / not possible. Is that still the case?

It will be easier for NPCs in 1.77 than in 1.76 (because scanClass is editable in 1.77). Getting the stealth component to work properly for the player would still be difficult. NPCs with shut-down engines hiding in ambush has been done, though, as mentioned in that thread.

cim, thanks for your answers.

I see, this is a little bit more complicated than I thought, with all these awesome oxp's which might or might not be installed on a target machine. So for starters I will stick to the plain-vanilla-version and implement features that require other oxp's later.

cim wrote:

It will be easier for NPCs in 1.77 than in 1.76 (because scanClass is editable in 1.77). Getting the stealth component to work properly for the player would still be difficult. NPCs with shut-down engines hiding in ambush has been done, though, as mentioned in that thread.

Uuh yeah a new version!! I think I have to get at NOW!!

I do like the sound of this.. The idea of making it necessary for the shields to be lowered to enable the LRS to function is a good one. It would certainly give the game a new tactical element.

GGShinobi you might want to check out some of my posts in this thread here where I started doing something like that, in particular working out how to make some gameplay out of it. There's a small demo you can try out - note that the 'designate on the space compass' bit only works on Oolite v1.76, and needs to be rewritten for 1.77. (Incidentally, as scripted this was just a single ping to give an approximate bearing that quickly becomes out of date, and I would have added a further option to track the target in a fully active mode, all the while increasing the likelihood of detection by others)

I was able to modify the detection of ships/objects based on various characteristics (e.g. size, speed, etc) and add probabilities that in turn can be affected by other factors. On the passive side I was thinking of intercepting comms and I got some way into doing similar kinds of signal analysis, e.g. being able to identify police units from afar etc.

I didn't really get much further with the the idea, but having got back into the swing of things (prompted by the Elite Kickstarter) I've been wondering what project to take on next and maybe this is it?

Unfortunately while can make the scripts produce the raw data I can't help in terms of making visual scan charts.

Diziet Sma wrote:

I do like the sound of this.. The idea of making it necessary for the shields to be lowered to enable the LRS to function is a good one. It would certainly give the game a new tactical element.

Actually, I thought it to be the other way round - that active shields protect a ship to a certain degree from being scanned. But I really like your idea and will implement it if I can. It would make sense if both would be true (ships need to lower shields in order to get good scan results, and active shields protect a ship from being (too intensely) scanned)

Perhaps, one could also purchase an "LRS shield frequency synchronizer" which makes it possible to do LRS scans without having to deactivate the shields of the own ship. This would work with the own ship, because the frequencies are known, but not with other ships. And perhaps it would not work as good as when one does completely deactivate the shields...

EDIT: forgot the second answer!! Here it comes:

Ramirez wrote:

GGShinobi you might want to check out some of my posts in this thread here where I started doing something like that, in particular working out how to make some gameplay out of it.

Thank you, Ramirez, I checked it out - or at least test-played it (and some other oxp's and the new version 1.77 - almost the whole day) - it was quite fun!! Worked very well!

I will have a look at the code soon, I'm curious how you did it! I'm sure most of it can be reused for the LRS.

Ramirez wrote:

I was able to modify the detection of ships/objects based on various characteristics (e.g. size, speed, etc) and add probabilities that in turn can be affected by other factors. On the passive side I was thinking of intercepting comms and I got some way into doing similar kinds of signal analysis, e.g. being able to identify police units from afar etc.

This is awesome and pretty much the kind of stuff that we need here!

Ramirez wrote:

I've been wondering what project to take on next and maybe this is it?

That would be great!!! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Ramirez wrote:

Unfortunately while can make the scripts produce the raw data I can't help in terms of making visual scan charts.

doesn't matter, if need be we can start with a textual interface. The user interface / visual representation can still be made if the underlying functionality works. And who knows, perhaps someone who has some experience with graphics can jump in?? *hope*
(I will also take this opportunity and try to learn that a little bit, but I've got a certain feeling that such things are not what I am talented in) (my drawings, for example, always look awful)