Oolite Bulletins

Seems escort ships are quite deef and don't help each other if I start killing them not from the mothership. Am I right or there is some nuances ? I've been playing for some weeks and looks like any escort is piece of cake because they give the best profit per second than rock hermits, narcotics and etc.

The first priority of escorts is to protect their mother, not each other. This is the basic explanation for the behaviour you're seeing. However, on the other hand, the mother does register an attack on one of its escorts and behaves accordingly, with a range of choices. For instance it can decide to flee while the attacker is busy with its escorts.

I also usually attack the escorts first and leave the mother till the end. The reaction of the convoy depends in my experience on the number of escorts. If there are six escorts and I start attacking one of them, usually two of the others will break formation and attack me, trying either to protect their colleague, or to borrow time for their mother by getting me into a fight right at the spot. The mother will use this time to get as far as possible from me, with the other three escorts staying with her. If the mother has injectors and fuel, she will use them.

With fewer escorts, the chances are greater for all other escorts to stay with the mother, who also will flee.

That's what I'm observing. I'm sure that one of the code boffins can shed more light on the exact programming of mother and escorts.

Commander McLane wrote:

The first priority of escorts is to protect their mother, not each other. This is the basic explanation for the behaviour you're seeing. However, on the other hand, the mother does register an attack on one of its escorts and behaves accordingly, with a range of choices. For instance it can decide to flee while the attacker is busy with its escorts.

I also usually attack the escorts first and leave the mother till the end. The reaction of the convoy depends in my experience on the number of escorts. If there are six escorts and I start attacking one of them, usually two of the others will break formation and attack me, trying either to protect their colleague, or to borrow time for their mother by getting me into a fight right at the spot. The mother will use this time to get as far as possible from me, with the other three escorts staying with her. If the mother has injectors and fuel, she will use them.

To me this is quite ineffective strategy for escort. Escort has significantly better damage dealt than player and this advantage should be used.

Part of the reason is that at the moment traders with large escort groups are rarely attacked by a lone pirate (and if they are, with the exception of the player who can have significantly better equipment than the average pirate, they'll probably win without fancy tactics).

So if the trader sends all their escorts against the first attacker, that leaves nothing left to deal with the rest of the pirate pack. Sending the escorts in a few at a time works well for that case because the second and third pirates can also have escorts sent against them, which leaves less of them free to concentrate on the mothership. (Focus all escorts on the lead pirate can work, but it can also lead to every other pirate being free to focus fire on the mothership and once that goes...)

Having traders do the same type of "could we take on this group in a fight" calculation as pirates currently do, and deploying escorts accordingly, would probably make more sense, but is not easy to do with the current AI setup. (And the player, in a group of 1, would probably have a good chance of having all the escorts focus fire on them, in that case)

There are also cases where the mothership AI can get stuck in a situation where it doesn't register attacks on escorts. I found and fixed one of those for the next version with the pirate AI a few months back, but I should probably check the trader AIs to see if they have a similar bug.

Mad Hollander wrote:

To me this is quite ineffective strategy for escort.

Are we talking about the same thing here?
I'm not a career pirate, so do not attack civilian trader convoys, but have certainly witnessed pirate on trader battles frequently. The trader Escorts will behave as Commander McLane explained - they will protect the mothership in a bid to allow her to escape, usually by being a 'distraction'. In other words they do not go 'all-out' to destroy any attacker, but rather keep the attacker busy while the mothership flees. This is why they work independently of each other. Don't forget they also don't want to get killed, so any attack will be measured.
Pirates on the other hand are a different matter. Pirate groups are more aggressive as you would expect. Of course (in the core game) the only 'pirate escorts' are those accompanying a Python Blackdog, and these will go on the offensive along-side the Python which will also attack you. Other 'escort ships' (eg mambas, sidewinders etc) you come accross as pirates are acting independently and are therefore not escorts at all, and will behave as any other pirate would.

Smivs wrote:

Mad Hollander wrote:

To me this is quite ineffective strategy for escort.

Are we talking about the same thing here?
I'm not a career pirate, so do not attack civilian trader convoys, but have certainly witnessed pirate on trader battles frequently. The trader Escorts will behave as Commander McLane explained - they will protect the mothership in a bid to allow her to escape, usually by being a 'distraction'. In other words they do not go 'all-out' to destroy any attacker, but rather keep the attacker busy while the mothership flees. This is why they work independently of each other. Don't forget they also don't want to get killed, so any attack will be measured.
Pirates on the other hand are a different matter. Pirate groups are more aggressive as you would expect. Of course (in the core game) the only 'pirate escorts' are those accompanying a Python Blackdog, and these will go on the offensive along-side the Python which will also attack you. Other 'escort ships' (eg mambas, sidewinders etc) you come accross as pirates are acting independently and are therefore not escorts at all, and will behave as any other pirate would.

Ok, I understand. My experience from different games(online team vs team) says that it is better to keep guns as long as possible especially when HP can be recovered.
It is good idea to sacrify single member during the fight against another probably bigger group. But doing this fighting against single enemy it looks not efficient. If the group can be involved into the several fights it must keep the amount of the guns otherwise it very soon becomes just peace of cake.
So, I think, from this point of view the tactic of the escort should be position-centered: having faced a single enemy or group with lower damage dealt, they must fight all together, but having faced with an equal stronger opponent, they can separate or event sacrify someone just in order to deal the part of the escort for time for the rest of group.

Mad Hollander wrote:

My experience from different games(online team vs team) says that...

Ahh.. this is the core of why you don't understand the escort behaviour in Oolite..

You see, as this whole "sacrifice" thing that you mentioned shows, you're thinking like a team in a game.. Oolite's escort behaviour is based more on what would be expected logical behaviour in real life. For many of the traders with escorts, the people flying those escorts are their friends, or even more likely, family members and relatives. If you're a very wealthy trader, perhaps they are employees. Most often, though, it's a couple of individuals specifically hired for a particular run.

Somebody hired to defend a trader isn't going to sacrifice themselves "for the team". They're doing it to earn a living, perhaps feed their family, and they are not going to throw away their lives if they can help it. The same goes for employees.. are you willing to die to help your boss make money?

You might get a family member willing to sacrifice themselves "for the greater good", but how many times can you do that before you have no family left? One run across the chart could easily cost you a dozen escorts.

Stop thinking of it like a game where everyone gets to play again next week, and start pretending it's for real. Your whole approach will change.

Diziet Sma wrote:

Mad Hollander wrote:

My experience from different games(online team vs team) says that...

Ahh.. this is the core of why you don't understand the escort behaviour in Oolite..

I understand but find it too easy to be exploited.

You see, as this whole "sacrifice" thing that you mentioned shows, you're thinking like a team in a game.. Oolite's escort behaviour is based more on what would be expected logical behaviour in real life. For many of the traders with escorts, the people flying those escorts are their friends, or even more likely, family members and relatives. If you're a very wealthy trader, perhaps they are employees. Most often, though, it's a couple of individuals specifically hired for a particular run.

At least, when an attacker has lower damage dealt than entire escort with mothership it is quite perfect solution to start attack using all guns in the team.
Probably sacrification sounds not good. But there are lots of examples in military tactics that mean the same - to deal part of the one part team(ie. vanguard or rearguard) for the time for the main part.

Mad Hollander wrote:

Probably sacrification sounds not good. But there are lots of examples in military tactics that mean the same - to deal part of the one part team(ie. vanguard or rearguard) for the time for the main part.

Yes.. but this is not a military situation. It's a civilian situation. Different standards apply.

Like I said, would you be willing to die, if that was what was required for your boss to make a profit?

If you're talking about civilian traders and their family/friends/hired-for-the-trip escorts, then you wouldn't expect perfect naval-style tactics.

El Viejo wrote:

If you're talking about civilian traders and their family/friends/hired-for-the-trip escorts, then you wouldn't expect perfect naval-style tactics.

And yet to a pilot they're still better at close formation flying than I am...

cim wrote:

El Viejo wrote:

If you're talking about civilian traders and their family/friends/hired-for-the-trip escorts, then you wouldn't expect perfect naval-style tactics.

And yet to a pilot they're still better at close formation flying than I am...

Yep... I spend a fair bit of time following convoys, often slipping right in amongst them and matching speed for the cruise... good immersion factor.

cim wrote:

El Viejo wrote:

If you're talking about civilian traders and their family/friends/hired-for-the-trip escorts, then you wouldn't expect perfect naval-style tactics.

And yet to a pilot they're still better at close formation flying than I am...

Yeah.. but they have a computer helping them.. you don't..