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Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:58 pm
by SandJ
I've played a few versions of Elite and from one of them got it in my head that shooting at anyone with a "clean" legal status immediately results in the player becoming an "Offender". But this is not the case in Oolite.
Disembodied wrote:
SandJ wrote:
I have just been attacked by a 'Sun' Ray; my legal status is Clean, but so is the 'Sun' Ray. That feels most unfair ... if I shoot back I'll become an Offender. For once in my life, I'll just have to run away. :cry:
You'll only become an Offender if the police see you shooting at a Clean ship. If there are no cops in the vicinity, burn him a new one and all will be well.
If I shoot a pirate 1000km from anywhere, the onboard camera picks it up and GalCop pays me a bounty. So why don't they know if I shoot up an innocent trader?

My gut feeling is that one should not be able to go shooting up "Clean" ships anywhere (with the probable exception of anarchies) without being branded an Offender.

Question: do you agree?

Question: would it be a big job to create an OXP that enforces such a philosophy?

Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:07 pm
by DaddyHoggy
In the old versions of elite you never knew the status of the other ships. If they fired at you, they were pirates and you shot back and you got a bounty. If you decided to shoot up what turned out to be an innocent trader well so be it, you just couldn't do that if there was a viper in the area or within the station Aegis.

I don't think the behaviour is any different between Elite and Oolite, it's just more obvious/exposed in Oolite.

To partly answer your other question - Elite rankings and bounty payments are handled by two different organisations but all the data comes from your gun camera which isn't installed by Galcop, they just pay the bounty if the ID of a ship shows up to be an offender or higher, but that data is only passed on to Galcop if there's a reward pending...

Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:20 pm
by Disembodied
SandJ wrote:
I've played a few versions of Elite and from one of them got it in my head that shooting at anyone with a "clean" legal status immediately results in the player becoming an "Offender". But this is not the case in Oolite.
Disembodied wrote:
SandJ wrote:
I have just been attacked by a 'Sun' Ray; my legal status is Clean, but so is the 'Sun' Ray. That feels most unfair ... if I shoot back I'll become an Offender. For once in my life, I'll just have to run away. :cry:
You'll only become an Offender if the police see you shooting at a Clean ship. If there are no cops in the vicinity, burn him a new one and all will be well.
If I shoot a pirate 1000km from anywhere, the onboard camera picks it up and GalCop pays me a bounty. So why don't they know if I shoot up an innocent trader?

My gut feeling is that one should not be able to go shooting up "Clean" ships anywhere (with the probable exception of anarchies) without being branded an Offender.

Question: do you agree?

Question: would it be a big job to create an OXP that enforces such a philosophy?
Well, the common explanation is that the Elite Federation is the one monitoring who kills who, not GalCop. They don't concern themselves with assigning guilt or blame: that's the job of the police. So if the police see you, they'll assign blame.

It's really just a workaround for a game mechanic. Personally, I don't commit piracy, but I think it should be a viable game choice. By making it necessary for the police to see you commit a crime, this adds an element of skill into choosing when and where to make your kills and makes for a better game. There's the whole risk-reward thing going: automatic criminality would remove that. It might feel a bit odd but I'd rather rationalise a good game element with some mental fudge than make things more sensible and risk losing some fun in the process.

I've no idea how easy or otherwise it would be to change this via an OXP (I suspect, from a standpoint of almost complete ignorance, that it's probably quite tricky).

Edit: Ninja'd by DH!

Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:39 am
by Thargoid
I always consider it that your cameras etc record you shooting any ship, but [narrativium] it is the pilot to sends the images of shooting pirates to Galcop to claim the reward, and few pilots would be stupid enough to send video evidence of their own piracy (shooting clean ships) to the police[/narrativium].

Of course what Galcop ships themselves witness is entirely in their own control, and fits as to why you get attacked if you go for a clean ship in their presence, but rewarded if you go for a pirate.

The question perhaps should be why NPC ships don't transmit images of themselves being attacked if they are clean. Narrativium there could be that as they're gun-cams, they don't have the focus.

Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:34 am
by JD
Thargoid wrote:
The question perhaps should be why NPC ships don't transmit images of themselves being attacked if they are clean. Narrativium there could be that as they're gun-cams, they don't have the focus.
Or perhaps GalCop have closed that loophole. If a "pirate" with a clean status had just sneakily fired on you moments before, and you then fired back, your attacker's snapshot of your return laser fire would convict you of a crime not committed.

Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:05 pm
by ADCK
I'm surprised they take photographic evidence of any sort, its set far into the future, surely by that time Photoshop would have evolved into a possibly sentient and omnipotent program capable of producing fake photos that are completely foolproof and indiscernible from the re...ALL GLORY TO PHOTOSHOP!!!

*ADCK vacantly stares off into the distance, Photoshop has consumed his mind*

Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:41 am
by Ganelon
I do play a pirate from time to time. From the practical standpoint, I can tell you that (when playing as a pirate) I don't give a Leestian tree grub's difficult-to-locate patootie about the points towards an Elite rating or the bounty. Neither of those puts any extra rum in yer grog. Scooping escape pods is more where the real money is. Big ships can have quite a few escape pods, and it's not at all impossible to make thousands of credits scooping them up and dropping them off at the main station. Now so far as being a criminal, why, you don't even have to be the one who shot up the ships they're escaping from. You just have to get there fast enough to net those little minnows and zip them back to the station. So the Escape Pod locater OXP is something I'd consider an essential piece of gear.

If that seems maybe a bit too cleanie-weenie for ye, well.. Think of it as ransom rather than insurance payments.

If you're a light touch on the trigger, you have the best chance of the crew and passengers jumping into the pods and abandoning ship so you can slip up and scoop their pods. But also, if the prey ship stays intact and there just happens to be a Dredger in the system (the Deep Space Dredger OXP), then you can use a salvage drone to tag the ship and escort it back to the Dredger for even more payout. Of course, you need a clean legal status for that.

Now, if I were to see maybe a big Lynx transporter and some big cargo ships in an unescorted convoy crawling along, I might fly on past them. I'd go a couple scanner lengths along the spacelane to make sure there weren't any Viper patrolling that could interfere and then double back to attend to that fat convoy. It'd be a point of profit and pride to not actually kill anybody, since there's no insurance payouts for a hold full of corpses. Sure, I could pop the hulls of those ships and get a few points towards and Elite rating.. But that sort of rating is thousands of kills away, and salvage pays good money right here and now.

Other than that, well there's shiny creds to be made "running blockade", though that's more of a privateer or contrabandisto (points at El Viejo) sort of work than actual piracy. If a system just happens to have some need for medical supplies or weapons for collectors, sports and self defence, then it can be profitable to make runs with that sort of merchandise.

Most of what I've explained here requires keeping a clean legal rating at least most of the time. The Anarchies OXP has some options for that as well as many other loverly things for a pirate or privateer or rebel against the corporate p0olice state to explore. It does add some stricter rules and makes it a bit harder to keep a clean rating, but it adds enough advantages to still be very worthwhile for the creative potential brigand or freebooter.

Now, my point in all this, is that you can't really even call all those space-for-brains NPCs you get jumped by as you're cruising along "pirates". Bah. They're just a bunch of addlepated wastrels that probably have been sniffing the laser coolant and grabbed the wrong joystick, if you know what I mean. A real pirate wouldn't be likely to fire on a single Jameson in something like a Cobra. A small ship doesn't have enough of anything in the cargo bay to be likely to be worth the bother, and if the Jameson can fight at all... Well, even having to use a single missile on them would pretty surely eat up any possible profit from attacking them.

Piracy/privateering/freebooting isn't really about being trigger-happy in an "iron-ass" ship. For pirating, I fly a cargo ship (Griff Boa proto) that only has a single laser. It's almost "stock", and is a long way from "iron assed". Sure, it has turrets, but those are mostly good for keeping off hardhead missiles. I need the big cargo bay, some passenger berths, and my wits more than I need a war-wagon.

Now if you want to talk fair, what I'd like to see is a Viper having to survive to turn in a report. It kind of takes the fun out of the old saying: "Dead Vipers file no reports." :wink:

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Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:43 pm
by Oathbreaker
Ganelon wrote:
So the Escape Pod locater OXP is something I'd consider an essential piece of gear.
Can't seem to find that on the wiki. Or google?

Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:40 am
by Makara
Possibly hypothetical? Not aware of it in any OXP...
Ganelon wrote:
Neither of those puts any extra rum in yer grog. Scooping escape pods is more where the real money is. Big ships can have quite a few escape pods, and it's not at all impossible to make thousands of credits scooping them up and dropping them off at the main station. Now so far as being a criminal, why, you don't even have to be the one who shot up the ships they're escaping from. You just have to get there fast enough to net those little minnows and zip them back to the station. So the Escape Pod locater OXP is something I'd consider an essential piece of gear.
Hope you have ADCK's Bulk Haulers installed. When one of those babies gets ready to pop the hard bit is manoeuvring in the resulting escape pod cloud without bursting too many.
Escape pods! Smooth on the inside, crunchy on the outside (sort of like armadillos :twisted: )

Re: Is getting away with piracy too easy?

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:48 am
by Ganelon
If you googled for it, you'd see that another_commander posted a "quick and dirty" Escape Pod Locator oxp a while back, but it was only available for a limited time.

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=8472

Perhaps if you ask another_commander nicely, it might become available again.