RFC: Fancy classics

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:48 pm

DaddyHoggy wrote:
Sung is not missed on these pages, the interloper he turned out to be.

Definitely!!!
But until now his textures was the only alternative we had. This has been changed. Thank you SimonB

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:49 pm

The image is gone, but the thread was here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=2934

Or here where LittleBear (who would later fall foul of Sung's wrath) posts a piccie of the new texture that would actually screw up lots of other oxps

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=2908

and the moment Sung finally spits the dummy is here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t= ... &start=150 sensibly Ahruman locked the thread...

Wolfwood · Post by **Wolfwood** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:49 pm

Simon B wrote:
Hmmm... Cobra Rapier would sort of fit - this is a cobra-clipper shell, cut to accomodate the engines, and body but two engines instead of one. This would suggest a very fast craft though.

I'll see about a proper skin. Some aspects of the model need tidying.
(I was going to do a cobra rapier along different lines - ultra-sleek, but reminiscent of your model.)

Oh, oh! I'd very much like to see what you had in mind for Cobra Rapier!

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:52 pm

DaddyHoggy wrote:
The image is gone, but the thread was here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=2934

Or here where LittleBear (who would later fall foul of Sung's wrath) posts a piccie of the new texture that would actually screw up lots of other oxps

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=2908

and the moment Sung finally spits the dummy is here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t= ... &start=150 sensibly Ahruman locked the thread...

doh!!!!
I told you that i want to forget

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:06 pm

Ark wrote:
DaddyHoggy wrote:
The image is gone, but the thread was here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=2934

Or here where LittleBear (who would later fall foul of Sung's wrath) posts a piccie of the new texture that would actually screw up lots of other oxps

https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t=2908

and the moment Sung finally spits the dummy is here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?t= ... &start=150 sensibly Ahruman locked the thread...
doh!!!!
I told you that i want to forget

You didn't have to follow the links

- it was for the benefit of a relative newcomer (SB) to catch up on the politics of a full set of new textures - although obviously SB has gone so much further with beautiful looking ships too.

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:31 pm

Ark wrote:
Simon B wrote:
You are saying you think the dock interior should look different?
Yes different and better. Sung did it with his textures in the past but instead of create a dedicated texture for the entrance and do the modifications to the dock and dock-flat model he just overwrite the dark_metal.png (with catastrophic consequences for a lot oxps). I can not locate the tread right now and to tell you the truth this tread is something that I personally want to forget (I am sure that the old members of the forum like you can understand why I want to forget )

That would be this one?

Sung seemed to have started out to do something very much like what I'm doing here. Much of the discussion is familiar, including people "voting" for his textures to be default on an upcoming release.

However, it all went pear-shaped. There was also a lot of misunderstanding about licenses and what it is we actually do here. The texture conflict was noted around page 3 and didn't look like a big deal.

I was aware of this attempt when I started this whole project. Sungs textures have also been mentioned in this thread someplace.

This is partly why I'm taking the complaint of conflicts seriously and explicitly inviting negative feedback... I don't want people worried about offending me.

You'll note there is also a license discussion in this thread someplace.

Also have you ever considered making a model replacement for the rock hermit? Right now the rock hermit is just an asteroid with a hole.

The rock hermit is in the standard set, so it is to be included at some point. However, the most I'd do would be retexture the asteroid and the dock. (tempting to put big engines on it ... are rock hermits supposed to move about at all? Or are they built in-situ?)

However, I'll put it in neolite concepts for assessment. Probably around the time I rotate the other ships out.

For that matter, there are also bouys to do.
I wonder - perhaps I could produce some alien advertising for YAH? Most ads will be targeting the majority human market, so there are multi-lingual human-language ads. I've been using three alien scripts in neolite that could use a general airing.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:04 pm

Simon B wrote:
Cobra Mod
No idea what this is - woke in the middle of the night with this thing clawing it's way out of my skull.

Or this is a neolite supercobra !!! (as long as you can put 2 more engines)

Simon B wrote:
The set currently up has different textures for those two.

Love them

As for the old thargoid warship if you can make it bigger it would be a fine neolite battlecruser (fron thargon threat)

Website · Post by **DaddyHoggy** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:07 pm

Ark wrote:
Simon B wrote:
Cobra Mod
No idea what this is - woke in the middle of the night with this thing clawing it's way out of my skull.

This is a neolite supercobra !!! (as long as you can put 2 more engines)

Isn't the Supercobra much bigger than the standard CMk3? Not that I know the scale of this one - this looks much thinner than the new neolite Cmk3 and therefore, unless its scaled appropriately would carry less Cargo not more.

However, its such a fine looking ship I'd be happy to see it, appropriately scaled, to be the Rapier or the Super version of the Cobra.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:37 pm

Simon B wrote:
I've been musing about how neolite ships keep interfering with non-neolite oxps.

For my point of view things are simple. Full replacement oxps with no changes from the original ones – just the new models. If you want the classic ships install the classic oxp otherwise the neolite version. A warning about not mixing the classic with the neolite oxp in the neolite wiki page should be enough (I hope

)

This can be easily archived in only ship oxps like the oldships (neolite-oldships.oxp) ect because they do not have dependencies and they are not updated very often (in some cases they are the same for ages)
But it seems to be some complications with the more complicated ones especially those that have a dependency with other oxps and have an update very offten. In those rare cases (like the behemoth – galactive navy – thorgon treat TRIANGLE) maybe you must treat them as one oxp. You have to change them all together and a close cooperation with the original author or the current maintainer of those oxps is crucial.

Moreover In case you want to create a neolite ship that does not exist in the classic form, a new megaship for example, make it a separate oxp do not try to sneak it inside the neolite behemoth oxp. That is the reason why I do not agree with the 2 boa skiffs inside the core package. Keep totally new ships and neolite replacement ships into separate packages.
So in the future the neolite oxps will be separated into 2 deferent categories. The replacement neolite oxps (neolite-old ship.oxp, neolite-behemoth.oxp) and the totally new ones (neolite-armored-anaconda.oxp ect).

In the future maybe we are going to have cases that the author/maintainer of a clasic oxp will start maintain only the neolite version of that oxp if it sees that the neolite - something.oxp is more popular than the clasic vesrsion of it and belive me your models can do that as long as you keep some balance it this early neolite stages we are living ourdays.

zevans · Post by **zevans** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:47 pm

(tempting to put big engines on it ... are rock hermits supposed to move about at all? Or are they built in-situ?)

It's traditional to move asteroids around using nukes or other high-energy weaponry repeatedly on one side of them (and thereby mining the hollow out at the same time?) or by moving other large bodies around to give them a gravitational tow/slingshot/move them to a Lagrange point/whatever. Reaction engines are only used to spin them up once in place. Hope this helps.

Actually this could be a feature - have a bunch of post-nuke craters on one side of the asteroid?

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:36 pm

Ark wrote:
For my point of view things are simple. Full replacement oxps with no changes from the original ones – just the new models. If you want the classic ships install the classic oxp otherwise the neolite version. A warning about not mixing the classic with the neolite oxp in the neolite wiki page should be enough (I hope :D )

And for most, this will work

But it seems to be some complications with the more complicated ones especially those that have a dependency with other oxps and have an update very often. In those rare cases (like the behemoth – galactive navy – thorgon treat TRIANGLE) maybe you must treat them as one oxp.

These rare ones tend to be popular - note that you missed out Behemoth Spacewar, and isn't there a thargoid-returns sort of thing(?) - other rare oxps are lovecats and black monks. There are even rarer ones without such dependencies, but which keep a set of classic models in-house, like Random Hits.

Moreover In case you want to create a neolite ship that does not exist in the classic form, a new megaship for example, make it a separate oxp do not try to sneak it inside the neolite behemoth oxp.

There is no neolite behemoth oxp.

That is the reason why I do not agree with the 2 boa skiffs inside the core package.

But they have to be there - they are integral to the two boas!

Keep totally new ships and neolite replacement ships into separate packages.
So in the future the neolite oxps will be separated into 2 deferent categories. The replacement neolite oxps (neolite-old ship.oxp, neolite-behemoth.oxp) and the totally new ones (neolite-armored-anaconda.oxp ect).

:arrow: What do other people think of this?

One of the advantages of the scheme I related is that it would be self correcting for those people who want to test out a release version before a whole set are complete. The group I'm working at are four oxps - there is also a navy station which appears across three(?) oxps. It is likely that I'll have one working before the others...

Also - it reflects how I work.

I'd rather not end up with neolite-each-single-ship.oxp, resulting in scores of individual packages. (That's basically my core objection to just copying each oxp.)

In the future maybe we are going to have cases that the author/maintainer of a clasic oxp will start maintain only the neolite version of that oxp if it sees that the neolite - something.oxp is more popular than the clasic vesrsion of it and believe me your models can do that as long as you keep some balance it this early neolite stages we are living ourdays.

So people realise that I am absolutely not going to do every single oxp in the game. I mean - you know what that would entail?! (besides, some of those ships are... hmmm... how do I put this

...actually, that ones pretty good)
last time I said someones ship looked like a cardboard cutout, I later figured out a texture that would make it work mumble engfeh... fnord

This does not mean that someone else cannot do one for their favorite oxp, and the policy of verbatim copying is good for anyone making a replacement for work which they do not own.

If someone makes a model or a texture that is liked, at least by me ;) , then it will get included. (There are already textures not made by me in the set.) A whole oxp can be official or unofficial - which just means I said so :? but either way will be very welcome.

----------------------------------

There are major questions concerning the megaships if they are really to be replacement behemoths ... I'll get to that when I know that this is a popular option. I don't want to have produced a whole set of huge fiddly ships only to have people complain.

(Ahh-drat - "megaships" also applies to Amen Brick's Megaships oxp!)

Looking through the list - does military fiasco belong here? Rattlecutter is in there. I see it depends on Murgh's X-Ships... which I think is on my request list... do I hear six oxps?

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:41 pm

zevans wrote:
(tempting to put big engines on it ... are rock hermits supposed to move about at all? Or are they built in-situ?)
It's traditional to move asteroids around using nukes or other high-energy weaponry repeatedly on one side of them (and thereby mining the hollow out at the same time?)

The Niven/Pournelle/Varley method?

Actually this could be a feature - have a bunch of post-nuke craters on one side of the asteroid?

Nice - I can put it opposite the doc - over the back pinch... maybe glowing slightly green?

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:12 pm

While we're talking policy - here's another example:

Vipers

Putting the extra vipers together kinda makes sense... and kinda not.

I've been calling the standard vipers mk1 and 2. Where they are patrolcraft, I've designated a cruiser and a pursuit to the mk1 and the interceptor is mk2. Later player and non-galcop npc editions will get named just "viper".

At least that's the idea.

Other OXPs have their own vipers. There is even a nu-vipers oxp.

We have:

Renegade (renegade viper + grass snake)
Hacker (anarchies)
Cruiser (darn!) (nu vipers)
Mark II (double darn!) (nu vipers)
SWAT (selezen's s-ships)
Navy (behemoth)
Armored Escort (Armored Transport)

Vigilante (mine!)

Following Ark, I'd have to do a complete replacement for each of these oxps to get all the vipers ... and anarchies is quite major. OTOH: some of them do kinda work in with their oxps. I'm inclined to keep the navy ships together for eg.

It doesn't always make sense to do a collection like this - consider the asps.

But what about those 1-ship cobra oxps?

The real trouble with combinations is that a player may not want a particular ship ... but then, that is an argument for no multi-ship oxps at all.

Random Hits, by comparison, is easy.
1. oxp maintainer is helping.
2. I only need model replacements - so I can use a patching oxp for the ships not already included.

zevans · Post by **zevans** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:38 pm

The Niven/Pournelle/Varley method?

Not sure who thought of it first, but yeah, I was thinking of the Mote (and World out of Time). I keep thinking about a full-on Belters OXP with monopole trading and who knows what else!

But it seems indistinguishable from magic to me, so it must be Clarke.

Actually this could be a feature - have a bunch of post-nuke craters on one side of the asteroid?
Nice - I can put it opposite the doc - over the back pinch... maybe glowing slightly green?

Hmm - can we use the corona code on ship models? Cherenkov style. Not that you would have Cherenkov in hard vacuum, but hey, if lasers can make a noise...

Simon B · Post by **Simon B** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:04 am

You do get sound in space. Lasers make a noise when you fire them because they are in your ship. Opponents lasers make a noise when they hit you - some of the energy gets dissipated as sound. The sound changes when your sheilds are breached because of the extra harmonics from your hull vaporizing.

The apollo 13 crew could hear it when their problem happened.

Sounds also carry on the gas from vaporized ships.

And while we are getting sidetracked:
Possible Cobra Rapier - this is a mockup.