Vortex OXP (plus the Maelstrom)

[Thargoid]

That sounds entirely plausible, after all they can hardly be released when they're stuck in the warp of a virtual cargo hold can they?

[SandJ]

You have to sort out the redeemable from the sellable yourself when you dock.

I see (I think). The game doesn't normally offer me any choice with regard to captured felons and rescued citizens, does it? They're released automatically and I'm given as much or as little as station officialdom or the insurance company choose to hand over. Are you saying the ones stored in the Vortex's non-current bay are sold as slaves? I'm still confused.

In my understanding, you don't sort them out, the station does.

Your ship goes into the landing bay and the hold is opened up. In there are 12 cargopods of one sort or another, and eight huge red & bright yellow things with flashing lights and rescue beacon transmitters continuously screaming on various frequencies. The GalCop-employed docking bay staff are hardly likely to ask you "Which ones do you want to a sell as slaves, and which ones do you want us to slit the throats?"

Instead, they unload them, determine if there is an insurance policy with the escape capsule, look for known felons and if neither of those, leave them with you so put on the market as involuntary indentured servants (i.e. slaves).

And each person you scoop is in a life support / navigation / tiny space ship / system called an escape capsule which weighs as much as, and takes as much space as, a cargopod.

As for actual scooped slaves in cargopods, those are special life support cargopods containing sufficient oxygen, food, waste storage and light reading material to keep one slave alive and well for a cross-galaxy journey. Hence only one slave per cargopod.

[Albee]

That sounds entirely plausible, after all they can hardly be released when they're stuck in the warp of a virtual cargo hold can they?

I suppose not. They can't be inspected, just as the cargo in those bays can't be inspected, so they can't be processed in the usual fashion. When I cycle the bays at dock, they appear on the manifest as slaves, I guess, and I sell them off as such. Heartless bastard, aren't I?

In my understanding, you don't sort them out, the station does... only one slave per cargopod.

Thanks, SandJ, I follow the logic.

What would you guys expect to happen when I cycle the bays whilst in flight? Will the game 'remember' which of my slave pods have felons/citizens in them? I ask because, on my last flight, I deliberately left bay 1 half-filled, and switched back to that bay before scooping any escape pods. I made sure to have bay 1 as my current bay before docking, but there was no mention of either felons or citizens (I had one of each, as I recall) when I landed. I want to repeat this before logging it as an official 'quirk', to make sure it wasn't a cock-up on my part -- always possible.

[Wildeblood]

What would you guys expect to happen when I cycle the bays whilst in flight? Will the game 'remember' which of my slave pods have felons/citizens in them? I ask because, on my last flight, I deliberately left bay 1 half-filled, and switched back to that bay before scooping any escape pods. I made sure to have bay 1 as my current bay before docking, but there was no mention of either felons or citizens (I had one of each, as I recall) when I landed. I want to repeat this before logging it as an official 'quirk', to make it wasn't a cock-up on my part -- always possible.

Any time you cycle the cargo bays all the information regarding special scripted cargo is lost. Try filling four bays with trade cargo, launching with the current bay empty, scooping as many escape pods as you can, then docking without cycling the cargo bays while in flight. All your "scoopees" should be included in the arrival report.

[Eric Walch]

Any time you cycle the cargo bays all the information regarding special scripted cargo is lost. Try filling four bays with trade cargo, launching with the current bay empty, scooping as many escape pods as you can, then docking without cycling the cargo bays while in flight. All your "scoopees" should be included in the arrival report.

Could be very frustrating when doing a special mission with a scripted pilot were a pilot script runs on docking. (e.g. used in: constrictor, lovecats, ups, vector, galNavy.) So, just make sure you don't cycle bays while in flight. I think that the script should change slaves into food on cycling. That will largely prevent the player from cycling cargo with valuable persons on board.

[Albee]

Any time you cycle the cargo bays all the information regarding special scripted cargo is lost. Try filling four bays with trade cargo, launching with the current bay empty, scooping as many escape pods as you can, then docking without cycling the cargo bays while in flight. All your "scoopees" should be included in the arrival report.

I'm sure you're right, but at present I'm a pirate and need far more than 30 t for my ill-gotten gains. With the Vortex's Multibay Cargo system, it seems there's no way around this problem -- I'm destined to 'lose' any scoopees I collect apart from those in the last bay selected prior to docking.

It's not the cash, you understand -- they tend to pay peanuts anyway -- it's just the immersion: I like to see the results of my good deeds. Mind you, it's always struck me as odd that you can blast an innocent trader, scoop his escape capsule, then get rewarded on docking for 'rescuing' him. In a way, cycling him into oblivion and selling him as a slave seems more in-character.

Could be very frustrating when doing a special mission with a scripted pilot were a pilot script runs on docking. (e.g. used in: constrictor, lovecats, ups, vector, galNavy.) So, just make sure you don't cycle bays while in flight.

That seems an important point to me -- important enough to deserve a heads-up on the Vortex wiki page, maybe?

[SandJ]

It's not the cash, you understand -- they tend to pay peanuts anyway -- it's just the immersion: I like to see the results of my good deeds. Mind you, it's always struck me as odd that you can blast an innocent trader, scoop his escape capsule, then get rewarded on docking for 'rescuing' him. In a way, cycling him into oblivion and selling him as a slave seems more in-character.

The pilot paid good money - 1000 Credits - for that Escape Capsule, and it comes with an insurance policy. That policy says that, with no questions asked, the pilot will be freed and given an equivalent ship.

For that to happen, pilots in escape pods have to be released.

The insurance companies will make sure this happens - otherwise nobody would buy the policies.
GalCop make sure this happens - otherwise all fights would be to the death.
Pilots make sure this happens - because they are the ones who use Escape Capsules.

If it were possible to sell an insured pilot as a slave, then when YOU eject in your 1000 Credit Escape Pod (with insurance included), then YOU should be sold as a slave. Which means "game over" when you eject.

Would you want that? No. So you let the station docking crew unload the Escape Pod and check it out with the insurance agent with no questions asked and accept the bounty / reward rather than a handful of credits for selling them as a slave. Because that's what you'd want them to do for you.

The pilot in question will either hot-tail it out of there in shame, or go to the bar and be humiliated by his/her/its friends and trading partners. "Shot up again, Jameson? You are such a loser. Just give it up and get a job dirtside."

Whereas if you sell them into slavery, there's a good chance half the space station actually knows that individual, and they'll soon know that it was you who dragged them screaming from the Escape Capsule and sold them into bondage. You'd be lucky to leave the space station alive.

[Albee]

The pilot paid good money - 1000 Credits - for that Escape Capsule... Whereas if you sell them into slavery, there's a good chance half the space station actually knows that individual, and they'll soon know that it was you who dragged them screaming from the Escape Capsule and sold them into bondage. You'd be lucky to leave the space station alive.

I have no argument with any of this, SandJ, but it's what the game presently 'forces' me to do when flying the Vortex, isn't it? If I dock with scooped escape capsules in non-current bays, the occupants aren't released into the care of GalCop or the insurance companies, and I have no say as to their fate. They next 'make an appearance' as slaves on the manifest when I cycle to the bay in question, at which point my only choices are to sell them or keep them as my permanent guests.

Actually, I think there's a workaround, though it's certainly fiddly.

I set out pirating, scooping pods and escape capsules into bay 1. When that bay becomes full, I eject all may my slaves. If I see any 'conventional' slaves in cargo pods drifting nearby, I immediately scoop them back into the same bay, but not the escape capsules. I then switch to a new, empty bay, scoop up the escape capsules, and carry on. When that bay becomes full in turn, I repeat the process, effectively moving the escape pods from bay to bay as they are filled. As I said, fiddly, not to mention time consuming.

I was worried that when I ejected an escape capsule slave, he would be shot into space as a cargo pod slave, but I've just tried it and that didn't happen -- the escape capsule appeared in my rear view mirror in all it's its Accessories splendour. I want to do more testing, but I'm hopeful this will work. Whether any sane pilot would want to go to all that trouble is another matter, of course.

[Albee]

Actually, I think there's a workaround, though it's certainly fiddly.

Well, I can confirm that it works. I've just returned from a flight in which I filled all 5 of the Vortex's cargo bays, collecting a total of 6 escape pods in the process and moving them along from bay to bay as outlined in my last post. On docking, all 6 'slaves' were released (4 'rescuees', 2 felons) and I was duly paid. And yes -- the process is certainly both fiddly and time consuming!

[Wildeblood]

I've just returned from a flight in which I filled all 5 of the Vortex's cargo bays, collecting a total of 6 escape pods in the process and moving them along from bay to bay as outlined in my last post. On docking, all 6 'slaves' were released (4 'rescuees', 2 felons) and I was duly paid. And yes -- the process is certainly both fiddly and time consuming!

But helpful, because it confirms your expectation. I would suggest to omit the slaves category from the multibay rotation, the same way the sub-tonne commodities were. That looks easy enough to do. Making it optional so players can decide how they prefer to deal with scoopees would be a bit of a PITA.

[Thargoid]

The problem then would be if you rotate to a bay which has too much cargo in it, so that the current total of slaves (and gems/gold/platinum if you have enough of it) plus the amount of cargo in that bay exceeds the volume of cargo capacity of the ship. At that point things won't fit and some cargo will be lost (or will have to be dealt with somehow).

It's a similar issue that will occur in 1.77 when equipment can start taking up cargo space - you will notice that the current version of the OXP will actually prevent you purchasing any equipment which does so for this reason.

There isn't really a simple way around it without some adjustments on trunk-side as well I think, which given it's only for one OXP probably aren't worth the time investment.

[Fatleaf]

There isn't really a simple way around it without some adjustments on trunk-side as well I think, which given it's only for one OXP probably aren't worth the time investment.

Well, it has been known for there to be a change for single oxp's before. Iron Hide comes to mind, the question is, is how much time would it need? If it would be too much then ok just live with it. But if it might be only a line or two...

[Wildeblood]

I would suggest to omit the slaves category from the multibay rotation, the same way the sub-tonne commodities were. That looks easy enough to do. Making it optional so players can decide how they prefer to deal with scoopees would be a bit of a PITA.

The problem then would be if you rotate to a bay which has too much cargo in it, so that the current total of slaves (and gems/gold/platinum if you have enough of it) plus the amount of cargo in that bay exceeds the volume of cargo capacity of the ship. At that point things won't fit and some cargo will be lost.

My reply above was an odd, mutant sort-of remark: the suggestion was directed not to Thargoid but at Albee, SandJ or anyone else who thought the issue important and might like to have a go at modifying the script; but the last sentence was obviously directed to Thargoid in anticipation that Someone Else would interject to complain that they wouldn't want such a change.

[Thargoid]

I'm happy to see all the ideas and discussions, so I can make the OXP do what people using it want to (and as a thank-you for the time and effort spent to report the problems in the first place).

The fundamental issue is that this OXP pushes the edge of what can be done with cargo and manifest (and things like slaves), but for the most part (for general gameplay) what is there is enough. Ironhide was a slightly different case in that I asked for (and got) a new worldScript/shipScript event. In this case though it would be asking for a change in something that, at least for basic trunk gameplay, isn't broken (although may not be optimal). My original meaning was that the dev's limited time may be better spent on other matters, bugs or improvements.

From some discussions I've had, I think it's going to be more work than a line or two, unfortunately.

[Eric Walch]

... the question is, is how much time would it need? If it would be too much then ok just live with it. But if it might be only a line or two...

It is the whole concept how Oolite handles cargo that makes it incompatible. Trading goos was only mend to happen for the docked player. At that moment, the cargo are just numbers on a list.
But as soon the player launches, his bay is 'really' filed with cargo. (Although, that 'real' object is still build from bits and bytes). For this cargo, cargo pods are selected with the role '1t-cargopod'. Before Oolite 1.74, scripts could only add cargo, not remove it. So, there was no real problem. Since 1.74, scripts can remove cargo. When doing that in flight, a real pod has to be removed. That pod could have an script attached to it or could have a pilot attached to it. As Albee noticed, when you dump a pod, the same object is released that you scooped earlier. No object is lost on scooping. When you keep a reference to it on scooping, a script can even access the properties of pods in the hold. The pods are only destroyed on docking. That is also the reason the scooped pilot must be processed in the first docking and can't wait until a main station because his container will be destroyed in the next frame.

Anyhow, this problem of reducing cargo during flight was anticipated but ignored. The only solution I saw when the manifest was introduced was completely disallowing cargo reduction while in flight. But, that seemed a bit too harsh to add.