Oolite Bulletins

Smivs wrote:

Having had time to think about this, and that it now seems that balancing space between cargo and equipment is probably not workable, I think that we should maybe just develop the existing system further.
One idea that might go some way towards making this more immersive is to link equipment more. For example make energy-thirsty equipment more dependant on the ship's energy system. For example, set items like shield boosters as requiring an Extra (or Naval) Energy Unit. Possibly also link them to total energy, so you need say four energy banks to allow fitment of shield boosters, and at least two energy banks are required before an ECM can be fitted.
Perhaps also the energy drain rates could be looked at as well, to re-balance things a bit, and make more equipment actually drain energy - the big oddity of Oolite is that plasma turrets don't drain energy. They should, a lot!
As far as 'space' is concerned, I think we should assume that any given ship has space available for the optional equipment avaiable for it, but extra equipment (OXP equipment in other words) should require hold space to be given up. Perhaps a minimum of 1TC for most equipment, but giving the author the option of requiring more space to be required/used for really powerful equipment. There should also be a requires_cargo_space = 0 (zero) option for obviously small items or those intended for fitment into the cockpit.
This approach should be simple, relying mostly just on condition scripts, and leaves the equipment options more or less as they are but adds a bit of realism to the system as well. It will depend a bit on OXP authors embracing the concept of equipment actually needing space, and players recognising the same thing - that you don't get something for nothing. But overall an approach like this could deliver a more realistic and believeable system which is familiar to players and authors alike. An evolution rather than a revolution.

^^This is an excellent suggestion.

I can envision having the Naval Energy Unit as a requirement for Mil lasers and Shields (but might make the Constrictor hunt too hard) thus lengthening the Beam laser's usefulness.

The only reservation I have, as an Adder pilot, is the two energy bank requirement for an ECM. The ECM is perhaps the one unit which has the right energy drain, and using it in combat in an Adder requires some care as it will reduce the one bank by about half. But not having the option however makes it an even harder craft to use.

Disembodied wrote:

make the military laser cost C*12,000

I agree, moreover I suggest lower range also. I do not know the reason of the current 30km, but unfair against the NPCs who never open fire from over the 25.6km scanner range. 25km is more real, and if we want to make less uber (I would like) then 20km is enough, which make some space to survive the surprise attacks of stronger NPCs in 1.80 (dual lasers with high accuracy or large groups of assasins).

Norby wrote:

I suggest to lower the range also. I do not know the reason of the current 30km, but unfair against the NPCs who never open fire from over the 25.6km scanner range. 25km is more real, and if we want to make less uber (I would like) then 20km is enough, which make some space to survive the surprise attacks of stronger NPCs in 1.80 (dual lasers with high accuracy or large groups of assasins).

I disagree. I like being able to snipe ships beyond scanner range. Already meddling with the beam laser damage is borderline for me but I agree to balance the player weapons against each other better.

I am all for keeping Multi-Targeting System.

Having been thinking a bit more over the last few days about how this might work, trying to put actual numbers on it, etc. I think that the additional customisation - energy banks, engines, thrusters, etc. is going to be very difficult to make work without some extremely unpopular sacrifices.

The essential problem - I'll show it with engines, but it applies to the other types of equipment too - is that you need some way to determine whether a ship has a speed of 0.30 because it's a Mamba (small, light) with a light fighter engine, or because it's a Cobra III NPC (heavy) with a much bigger engine. The "obvious" answer to automatically calculate that from the ship's mass falls apart because the mass numbers aren't much use - the Cobra III is heavier than the Boa II. Fortunately we don't really use the mass number for anything other than working out how far you have to be from the main station before you can enter witchspace, some mostly irrelevant calculations for how long a wormhole stays open (usually the wormhole's own mass far outweighs the ships in it), and determining how many hundred times you died in a head-on collision.

So essentially you need to specify something in the shipdata - either override the automatic mass calculation, or add an explicit engine_effect parameter - which says what effect they have. Ships with that parameter can replace their engines; ships without get their speed read in from shipdata and it's assumed that they have a fixed engine that can't be upgraded. Now that's a complete mess - two entirely separate ways of calculating a ship's top speed which also affect its equipment eligibility (and there's no way that "every ship OXP" is an acceptable loss from a deliberate compatibility break, either)

Repeat for thrusters, energy banks, energy generators, etc. (banks and generators are a bit easier, but thrusters are much worse)

As for this, IMHO the only thing that needs to be done is making ship parameters (speed, yaw, roll etc.) readable/writable and an OXP could handle upgrades via equipment. Or even the core game. Whatever.

This way 'all the ship OXPs' wouldn't get broken.

maik wrote:

I like being able to snipe ships beyond scanner range.

It is fun, but a bit unfair. To make fair a new AI can teach the NPCs to shoot back from 30km, but I think this make many unhappy players who can not target his attackers, so the lower range is a better solution imho.

To keep the fun part, a more costly range extender or a new sniper laser can be invented which require naval energy unit. To keep the balance some NPCs can hold this but fewer than the current military laser equipped ones (a new thing is not in the old ships automatically).

The shorter range military laser should be available in midgame so I suggest to require the extra energy unit only and not the naval version.

Good idea to make required equipments which raise the acquisition cost and possible to limit the usage if a required piece is damaged, for example you lose the extra range if either the extender or the naval energy unit is damaged.

Zireael wrote:

As for the upgrades, IMHO the only thing that needs to be done is making ship parameters (speed, yaw, roll etc.) readable/writable and an OXP could handle upgrades via equipment. Or even the core game. Whatever.

This way 'all the ship OXPs' wouldn't get broken.

Sensible, then someone could write a Turbocharger OXP to increase speed by say 10% and a Supercharger OXP to increase Thrust again by say 10%. Like it

Also speed/trust/etc could be modified in OXP by the cargo tonnage. A full Anaconda will accelerate slower than an empty one, as would an Adder with it's little engine.

Norby wrote:

[...] unfair against the NPCs [...]

I don't think we should get too concerned with making everything fair for NPCs ... after all, they can (and do) gang up on the player. Letting players get some retaliation in first is OK by me!

Also, we should be careful of changing too many weapon parameters at once, since any change will obviously affect game balance. I would like to slow down and stretch out the journey from lightly-armed-and-armoured to iron-ass-death-machine, though, so anything which could delay the player's acquisition of the +6 Laser of Smiting - either by price alone, or through dependency on some other higher-end piece of kit - is worth thinking about. However, this will inevitably have an impact on the Constrictor mission: if we're not careful, players will get offered the mission before they have the kit to complete it.

Disembodied wrote:

Norby wrote:

[...] unfair against the NPCs [...]

I don't think we should get too concerned with making everything fair for NPCs ... after all, they can (and do) gang up on the player. Letting players get some retaliation in first is OK by me!

Well, that, and the odd Thargoid in an extended GalNav vs. Thargs battle. They also don't ask me if I find it balanced when they send their Tharglets my way

Venator Dha wrote:

I can envision having the Naval Energy Unit as a requirement for Mil lasers and Shields (but might make the Constrictor hunt too hard) thus lengthening the Beam laser's usefulness.

Given how late in the game the NEU comes in I rather strenuously object to that idea...
(I'm still in G2 and wouldn't want to be without either of those items)

I also wouldn't want to see mil laser range reduced to anything less than scanner range.

- Neelix

Neelix wrote:

I also wouldn't want to see mil laser range reduced to anything less than scanner range.

Then how about 25km initially and 30km if Naval Energy Unit is installed also?

Norby wrote:

Neelix wrote:

I also wouldn't want to see mil laser range reduced to anything less than scanner range.

Then how about 25km initially and 30km if Naval Energy Unit is installed also?

I see some sense in that, though I'm probably not the best person to ask, the controls on my Pandora aren't sensitive enough for me to aim at most ships past that distance anyway... (my left nub is broken so I'm stuck using the dpad which means I'm essentially using keyboard control.)

- Neelix

Norby wrote:

Neelix wrote:

I also wouldn't want to see mil laser range reduced to anything less than scanner range.

Then how about 25km initially and 30km if Naval Energy Unit is installed also?

I think a 20km to 30km increase would mean that the NEU reward for the Constrictor quest is even better than before.

Edit: Got Constrictor & Thargoid plans rewards mixed up

Because of the difficulty in getting all your shots in on a ship with the military laser (for reasons of overheating), I use the sniper lock oxp. However, what this means is that I don't hit enemies before they are close enough for target locking. So, as far as reducing the military laser to scanner range, I have no problem with it.

cim wrote:

• Remove the "optional_equipment" section from shipyard.plist and "available_to_all" from equipment.plist and replace them in the core game with more use of condition scripts. These are virtually useless to OXP equipment anyway.
• Make all equipment sellable, including a configurable sale price, at stations which have the TL to repair it. Pylon weapons continue to be sellable almost everywhere. Need to be a little careful here that selling the initial pulse laser becomes an interesting decision rather than an automatic one.
• Breakable standard equipment might still be worth considering even if you can't remove it to save space
• Make equipment damage proportional to attack damage so missile hits really hurt even if you survive
• Introduce 'disrupted' equipment state.
• ECM graphics improvements
• Increase NPC equipment usage and damage

The above in particular, I really like.

Depends what the condition scripts would do exactly but the "optional_equipment" part has never really been relevant to OXPs as far as I could tell.

Missile hits at the moment are largely a toughness test. The above proposal, I think, would make them much more interesting (especially if linked to NPC equipment damage too!)

Military lasers ... they can't require the NEU, since you "need" the military laser to fight the Constrictor, and you don't get the NEU until a long time after that mission. Requiring any sort of energy unit would be inconvenient, since you'd be in even more trouble than usual if it got damaged.

Certainly if you go for it immediately after the beam laser you can upgrade from 5-6 trips of profit. There are probably other more useful items - Scanner Targeting Enhancement, a second beam laser, extra energy unit, fuel scoops - for a beginning player who is having difficulty hitting anything with the beam laser anyway, and doesn't know the optimal trade routes. Even I'd prefer most of those to saving up and not getting any more upgrades until the military laser, but it depends how long you spend in entirely safe systems before trying something more interesting.

The problem with the military laser's balance is much more the range than the damage - being able to pick off near-enough every ship in the game at a range it can't fight back (and very few ships have the speed to close that range in time against a Cobra III, especially for the aft laser). So you go from a pack of three ships being a fairly tough fight when you've got a beam laser and not much else, to a pack of ten being mostly a matter of patience with the military laser.

Shooting ships from outside their scanner range and having them just sit there is an AI bug which is already on my list to fix for 1.82 - they should respond as the player would in that situation and either close to scanner range or run and dodge to make them much harder to hit ... or both, if there's a group. Still, shooting them from just inside scanner range isn't a lot easier for them to deal with anyway.

At the moment ships with injectors and a pulse or beam laser won't use them pre-emptively to close to dogfighting range against an opponent with a military laser, and they probably should. Ships without injectors have a more difficult decision in that situation though it's not so bad if someone else in their group has one. Possibly ship groups should swap beam lasers for injectors quite often.

(Naturally if the AI was improved so that a military laser was nowhere near as useful against a pack of ten pirates, the frequency of appearance of those packs would need to be reduced)

Historical note: as far as balance goes, scanner range in Elite was much reduced compared with ship speed than it is in Oolite. In BBC Elite you can take a stationary target from the edge of scanner to adjacent in 30 seconds - that implies a scanner range of only 9km (weapons ranged at ~5km/10km) in Oolite scale - which would be a very different fighting environment.