Oolite Bulletins

Any chance of a summary of

1) What this project hoped to achieve

2) How far it had gotten when it sundered

(So that people don't have to read through 51 pages of thread!)

1) Three quotes from the thread:

[Cody] Hopefully, a barely perceptible Navy presence, with better gfx and a few missions along the lines of the native missions.

[Smivs] The idea is to create a more 'believable' Navy presence that sits more comfortably in the Ooniverse as many of us see it. The problem with GN is that it's too big. Based on canon and lore the war against the Thargoids is played out mostly in InterGalactic space, and therefore you wouldn't expect to find a big naval presence in 'normal' space. There would not be navy ships all over the place (clogging up the spacelanes!) and the idea of numerous naval bases (SecComs) in each Galaxy also seems a bit silly. These stations also skew the game quite badly due to their market economics. Also, GN often focusses on Pirates, and there is no justification for this within the game - that's what the GalCop Police are for.

We are talking about an OXP which adds a much more discrete (and believable) naval presence, with a more appropriate range of ships. It may in time also offer missions similar to the two in-built missions involving HIMSN, small, covert special-ops type missions rather than the somewhat repetitive mass shoot-em-ups that GN offers.

[Gimi] The Navy is there if you go looking. If you do your normal trading, mining and bounty hunting you will never see them. They do not, under any circumstances, meddle in internal system politics. So, you will not be attacked by the Navy if you are an offender or even a fugitive for that matter. That is a police matter.

2) No idea!

I found this tucked away under Keepers thread on his privatised bit (NVSecurity.oxp.) of HIMSN:

phkb wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:43 pm

Re the HISMN project, what was still outstanding for it? On briefly looking through the last available download (v0.701, which I think should be 0.7.0.1), I can see populator-type functions, but no missions (at least, none that I could see). Was this the next step for the project?

Just ran it (using Okti's Long Range Scanner to let me bounce around and see everything).

Good news!

It works!

Visited ****, jumped to the Imperial Navy Station which was surrounded by a dozen HIMSN vessels, resplendent in the livery, and was warned to scarper within 15 seconds or I would be fried to a crisp.

By the way, without Long Range Scanner - or some equivalent - I'd never have found it!

I've not tried misjumping yet.


Cody: what do YOU want it to do?

How important are the missions? What else should it do?

I've now had HIMSN up and running for some time (and, thanks to Cody, visited the HQ).

This programming/combat ignoramus thinks that there are only 3 things that need doing before posting Version 1 (Eye Candy only) of this on the Expansions Manager.

1) Textures for the navy stations in the appropriate livery
2) Markets for the stations (the commodity prices are discussed earlier in this thread)
3) Some sort of welcome on docking (GN has one, why not HIMSN)

Have I missed anything important?

I presume that the AI issues were worked out (Gimi, Cim).
And that Cody's note was solved
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Reference: From Gimi's original Summary

Development.
Version 1: (Eye Candy only)
Navy units from the core ship-set. Done
Navy stations. (HQ and Outpost) Done: but need textures, markets & "welcome"
Basic scripting and and AI behaviour. Done

Version 2: (Thargoid Interaction)
War zones with the Thargoids
Capital ships Done
Additional stations (Navy Shipyard and maybe some mission related type of station)

Version 3: (Missions)
Player Missions

So this is the framework as I see it.

Gimi's later summary is here
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Appendix: Piracy

So one crucial difference between HIMSN and GN is the approach to piracy.

Nowadays, as Gimi explains at length, Armed Forces do not stoop to deal with illegal activity. But historically, things were different. The gold-laden argosies crossing the Atlantic en-route to Hispania, with the Spanish Navy trying to protect them. Think of Blackbeard and the Spanish Main, where the Royal Navy wiped out piracy in a couple of decades after the 1698 Piracy Act.

Nowadays, of course, piracy is not a major issue (except perhaps at the Horn of Africa). Historically, the Sea-Dayaks & Ibans of Borneo made the Malacca Straits almost impassable. And of course, the newly independent USA's first war was against the Barbary States of North Africa who turned a blind eye to their pirates (bit more complex than this gist, but still...).

Edited to add this pretty picture:

British forces engaging Iranun pirates off Sarawak (Borneo) in 1843


So what about Oolite?

...The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely...

From Oolite.org

I'm not arguing that HIMSN's line on pirates needs changing (too much work, I suspect). But it does need a good argument to buttress it, I think. One can also see how it would lead to interesting tensions between HIMSN & the GalCop police.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:56 pm

But it does need a good argument to buttress it, I think.

HIMSN has its hands full dealing with gooks - they're winning the battles but losing the war. Piracy is simply not on their radar!

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:56 pm

I'm not arguing that HIMSN's line on pirates needs changing (too much work, I suspect). But it does need a good argument to buttress it, I think. One can also see how it would lead to interesting tensions between HIMSN & the GalCop police.

It was a long time ago, but I think the basic argument was: HIMSN is small. Its primary origin, and base, is the product of a local conflict within one region of one galactic sector. There are factions within the Co-operative, and indeed within HIMSN, who do not want to see HIMSN become an overarching Co-Op military. The whole "Imperial Majesty" thing rubs a lot of people up the wrong way: Empress who? I didn't vote for her … So they are in reality a quasi-autonomous body with tentative links to the Co-Op as a whole, desperately short of finances, ships, and personnel, running dodgy Skunkworks projects on a shoestring to the extent that their Hardhead missile technology leaked out (which may have been deliberate - see below) and their latest prototype interceptor got stolen.

HIMSN's focus is on the Thargoid menace, which HIMSN regards as an existential threat to all other races in the galaxy. Piracy is a local problem, and - bluntly - the constant low-level threat of piracy means that ships are more likely to be in convoys and carrying armaments, which HIMSN sees as being a Good Thing, because when the Thargoids attack in force then maybe some of these civilians (a category which, in HIMSN's eyes, includes pirates) might take a few of the bugs with them before they're slaughtered.

The Co-Op, and GalCop, are reactive, and see the Thargoids as an occasional - albeit genuinely dangerous - nuisance. HIMSN has other ideas - and is much more proactive in dealing with them. HIMSN knows more about the bugs than they're letting on.

Cody wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:28 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:56 pm

But it does need a good argument to buttress it, I think.

HIMSN has its hands full dealing with gooks - they're winning the battles but losing the war. Piracy is simply not on their radar!

1) Less relevant: There were several posts above about their planning raids on Thargoid worlds/bases, rather than just simply reacting. I didn't spot any about the war being lost (although that is implicit on the Oolite.org website Edited to add: Codswallop!).

2) More relevant: He who pays the piper calls the tune. The Corporates & Democracies (the richest worlds in GalCop) will presumably be paying for HIMSN. Unless it is paid for by Her Majesty on Basta:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Lave_(Rough_Guide) wrote:

The Empress looks down from her palace on Basta, the swift-running moon, ruling all, and interfering with no-one. Her loyal Tyrant presides over the self-electing Assembly, an easygoing, casual government which is content to devolve most decisions to the individual town Clatches scattered across the planet. Officially, Lave is a Dictatorship; officially, the Empress is all-powerful; officially, in her absence, the Tyrant wields her authority without check.

If the first, then the pirates are more of a threat than the Thargoids, no? So they will be screaming for help against the pirates and HIMSN will be trying to argue against them and the GalCop Police that the Thargoids must be the real focus for HIMSN.

If the second, where does she get all this money from? HIMSN may be cheaper than the GN, but it is hardly "cheap"!

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:51 pm

2) More relevant: He who pays the piper calls the tune. The Corporates & Democracies (the richest worlds in GalCop) will presumably be paying for HIMSN. Unless it is paid for by Her Majesty on Basta:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Lave_(Rough_Guide) wrote:

The Empress looks down from her palace on Basta, the swift-running moon, ruling all, and interfering with no-one. Her loyal Tyrant presides over the self-electing Assembly, an easygoing, casual government which is content to devolve most decisions to the individual town Clatches scattered across the planet. Officially, Lave is a Dictatorship; officially, the Empress is all-powerful; officially, in her absence, the Tyrant wields her authority without check.

If the first, then the pirates are more of a threat than the Thargoids, no? So they will be screaming for help against the pirates and HIMSN will be trying to argue against them and the GalCop Police that the Thargoids must be the real focus for HIMSN.

If the second, where does she get all this money from? HIMSN may be cheaper than the GN, but it is hardly "cheap"!

IIRC we went with a different Empress. The hicks on Lave might pretend otherwise.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:51 pm

Unless it is paid for by Her Majesty on Basta: "The Empress looks down from her palace on Basta..."

Excuse my language, but screw the Empress on Basta!

Disembodied wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:02 pm

IIRC we went with a different Empress. The hicks on Lave might pretend otherwise.

Exactly!

Disembodied wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:45 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:56 pm

I'm not arguing that HIMSN's line on pirates needs changing (too much work, I suspect). But it does need a good argument to buttress it, I think. One can also see how it would lead to interesting tensions between HIMSN & the GalCop police.

It was a long time ago, but I think the basic argument was: HIMSN is small. Its primary origin, and base, is the product of a local conflict within one region of one galactic sector. There are factions within the Co-operative, and indeed within HIMSN, who do not want to see HIMSN become an overarching Co-Op military. The whole "Imperial Majesty" thing rubs a lot of people up the wrong way: Empress who? I didn't vote for her … So they are in reality a quasi-autonomous body with tentative links to the Co-Op as a whole, desperately short of finances, ships, and personnel, running dodgy Skunkworks projects on a shoestring to the extent that their Hardhead missile technology leaked out (which may have been deliberate - see below) and their latest prototype interceptor got stolen.

HIMSN's focus is on the Thargoid menace, which HIMSN regards as an existential threat to all other races in the galaxy. Piracy is a local problem, and - bluntly - the constant low-level threat of piracy means that ships are more likely to be in convoys and carrying armaments, which HIMSN sees as being a Good Thing, because when the Thargoids attack in force then maybe some of these civilians (a category which, in HIMSN's eyes, includes pirates) might take a few of the bugs with them before they're slaughtered.

The Co-Op, and GalCop, are reactive, and see the Thargoids as an occasional - albeit genuinely dangerous - nuisance. HIMSN has other ideas - and is much more proactive in dealing with them. HIMSN knows more about the bugs than they're letting on.

Good. Very good.

Question: HIMSN is not based at Lave. So, Lave started it, fine. Who pays for it now?

Disembodied wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:02 pm

IIRC we went with a different Empress. The hicks on Lave might pretend otherwise.

Edited to add: This one?
But Gimi's Annual Parades were supposed to take place in Lave and the surrounding Old Worlds.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:05 pm

Good. Very good.

Question: HIMSN is not based at Lave. So, Lave started it, fine. Who pays for it now?

Lave didn't start it. I don't have any of my notes to hand (I'm not even sure where they might be …) but the Empress was in Galaxy 5, possibly on Tetiri. HIMSN is (again, I think) a product of an alliance between Tetiri and Orlaed, and the "Empire" is the cluster of systems in the bottom-left of the map. HIMSN is almost entirely funded by that knot of systems, plus anything it can wheedle out of the wider Co-Op in the wake of a major Thargoid assault.

Also edited to add: the above represents my recollection of a background sketch. It might not have made it into the final version.

Disembodied wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:23 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:05 pm

Good. Very good.

Question: HIMSN is not based at Lave. So, Lave started it, fine. Who pays for it now?

Lave didn't start it. I don't have any of my notes to hand (I'm not even sure where they might be …) but the Empress was in Galaxy 5, possibly on Tetiri. HIMSN is (again, I think) a product of an alliance between Tetiri and Orlaed, and the "Empire" is the cluster of systems in the bottom-left of the map. HIMSN is almost entirely funded by that knot of systems, plus anything it can wheedle out of the wider Co-Op in the wake of a major Thargoid assault.

Very helpful, thanks. That combined with Gimi's Annual Parade around the Old Worlds can explain the confusion as well as the Lave beliefs. The Empress on Basta presumably must contribute something and help encourage the confusion which redounds to her credit. If she actually pays in some dosh, HIMSN in Galaxy One will not want to upset the applecart.

Edited to add:
The piracy issue can then be explained away too. The handful of supporting systems do so because of tradition or because they perceive the Thargoids as the greater threat. Dictators etc will be able to get away with this idiosyncratic long-term view rather more easily than democracies.

Disembodied wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:23 pm

I don't have any of my notes to hand (I'm not even sure where they might be …)

My notes are long gone - on some rust that no longer spins.

Disembodied wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:23 pm

the above represents my recollection of a background sketch. It might not have made it into the final version.

Indeed!

I've managed to locate some of the background fluff! It appears that HIMSN is getting Co-Op cash (although maybe not as much as it would like, and maybe more than the Co-Op would like to give). This would have been the public-facing information (i.e. "what everyone knows"):

Her Imperial Majesty's Space Navy (HIMSN) is the military arm of the Tetiri Conclave. Based in a rather distant star-cluster to the south-west of quadrant five, the planets of the Conclave suffered some of the first Thargoid attacks on known space. Coming together under a treaty of mutual defence, and led by the human colonists of Orlaed and the reptile natives of Tetiri, the Conclave was able to build and equip a force of fighting ships capable of withstanding Thargoid aggression, eventually driving the invaders from their sector. The success of HIMSN led to the previously isolated Conclave being invited to join the Co-operative, and it is now one of the larger and more cohesive political subgroups to be found anywhere within the eight.

Although the Tetiri Conclave only recently became a full voting member, the ships and crews of HIMSN are already at the forefront of the fight against Thargoid incursions across the entire Co-operative volume. Unlike the disparate forces of GalCop, which tend to be focused on planetary policing, much of the work of HIMSN is carried out in deep space, denying territory to the enemy and thwarting raiding parties before they reach inhabited systems. Now that HIMSN has the financial and industrial muscle of the whole Co-operative to call upon, we can anticipate the swift and total defeat of the Thargoid menace.