Unusual planet jump failure

[Gimi]

You guys need to stop derailing Commander McLane from his efforts of updating Personalities.oxp.

Us? Derail Commander McLane's efforts? Perish the thought!

For some obscure reason I think that a certain person who feels somewhat guilty just commented on my comment.

[Commander McLane]

Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions. Let me give a small update:

A Thargoid Witchspace Jammer... in spacer parlance, a tube breaker.

A "Thargoid Witchspace Jammer" it is.

Something like this would have the welcome side-effect of discouraging use of the energy bomb to kill the Thargoids.

Oh yes! Clever! Blow the Tharg's and you blow the Tube Breaker up as well! You survive, but only so you can eventually starve to death...

Hm. I'm not sure I am following. If the Witchspace Jammer is the device which keeps your wormhole collapsed, the destruction of the device should make your wormhole re-appear. Or am I missing something? Therefore I'd say, no matter when and how the device is destroyed, the wormhole instantly re-opens.

I guess your reasoning is somehow different from mine, but I need some more elaboration to understand it.

I've no idea what is feasible... I'd have it so the tube breaker has to be destroyed/disarmed after all the Thargoids have been splashed... you've got to win the firefight to earn the chance to escape.

Scripting-wise this would be possible. However, depending on your other OXPs it may get practically impossible to win the firefight. I prefer Disembodied's approach:

Whenever the buoy/tube-breaker is destroyed, the wormhole reappears, but it'll only stay open for a short(ish) time, I assume: so destroying it with a q-bomb or energy bomb might not be a great idea, if you get distracted by the fight ... and if the player does manage to reach the buoy, and destroy it, opening up the wormhole before all the bugs are dead, would it be possible for the bugs to follow the player through the wormhole and arrive moments later, just after the player is feeling smug at having escaped?

All of this is possible scripting-wise.

In my current version the Witchspace Jammer is spawned outside scanner range. So you (or somebody else) has to first find it and get there in order to destroy it. If it is destroyed, "your" wormhole opens at the place where you left it. This will of course also be outside (or at the edge of) your current scanner range. You also get a notification via commsMessage; I don't want to make it too difficult. The wormhole stays open for about 90 seconds. If you get distracted or don't know where to look for it, it will be gone.

Currently the remaining Thargoids will not follow you. But in principle they can, as do for instance pirate ships. All that's needed is to amend the thargoidAI analogous to pirateAI.

Or several wormholes appear?

This would also be possible, but I would make it depend on the presence of other ships. If there are other yellow blips around you, and still exist when the Witchspace Jammer is destroyed, each of them could get its wormhole re-opening. In this case you would have to find "your" wormhole in order to get to your destination.

The most crucial time will be the first time the player experiences a misjump: in nearly every case this will be a horrible surprise and they won't know what's going on. I'd imagine that most if the time, if they survive, they'll only have the time to start looking around and notice the tube-cutter after the dust has settled and they're wondering what's going to happen next. My preference would be for something smallish and innocuous-looking, personally (well, as innocuous as a lump of alien kit in interstellar space can look, that is). The Hive Core model would work fine, but I'd scale it down to somewhere between a nav-buoy and a rock hermit in size. The player should have to hunt it down, as they scan across the vast starfield, looking for anything at all ...

Escaping the trap should be a puzzle. If the thing's too big, then there's no achievement in finding it. Also, people might think it's a station and either try to dock with it, or assume it's indestructible. It could be kept safe from energy bombs and q-bombs by placing it at a distance from the likely location of the fight: not hugely far away, but far enough so that it's hard, but not impossible, to pick out.

Behemoth Spacewar and some other OXPs could give some problems there with NPCs seeing the buoy as alien and so targeting it. BS would be OK as you have a ready-made solution there to get you out of the trap, but not all OXPs are so benevolent...

I have some thoughts on the issues touched here. Unfortunately they are mutually exclusive, and I don't know which one to pursue. I can need some advice here.

The question is: where shall the Witchspace Jammer be positioned, and how shall it be treated by NPCs?

One idea: give it CLASS_ROCK and use the scanner colour definition (alternating red/green) in order to make it appear like CLASS_THARGOID only for the eyes of the player. Then NPCs wouldn't care about it either way. Chances of anybody else blowing it up are minimized. It could even be placed within scanner range.

Second idea: let it have CLASS_THARGOID and place it outside scanner range, preferably in a direction NPCs are unlikely to take (-z coordinates). The main problem is that this would make it really hard to find, especially for the first-time-misjumper. Having to scan the whole sky visually, with the lighting conditions in interstellar space, and if you don't even know that there is something to look for in the first place, seems an unfairly difficult puzzle.

Third (unrelated and new) idea: Make it into a real jamming device. Give it a high enough mass that it actually blocks witch jumps by mass-locking. Some small tests have revealed that regardless of mass the maximum mass-locking distance is capped to scanner range, therefore the device would need to be placed within scanner range of the witchspace exit point. And giving it CLASS_ROCK wouldn't work, because rocks don't mass-lock. I have to say I like the idea of the Witchspace Jammer having actual mass-locking properties.

This leads to the fourth idea: Have not one, but four Witchspace Jammers positioned in a tetrahedral grid around the witchspace exit point for maximum mass-locking effect, just within scanner range. All of them have to be destroyed for your wormhole to re-appear. Having four jammers also decreases the chance that other NPCs will destroy them for you. The puzzle to solve wouldn't be to find one device, but to destroy four of them, while only the last one destroyed will give you the prize.

Personally I'm feeling inclined to idea #4. But I'd like to read some more thoughts about it.

[Switeck]

And giving it CLASS_ROCK wouldn't work, because rocks don't mass-lock.

I'm pretty sure asteroids and certainly Rock Hermits can mass-lock you from hyperspacing very near them, they just won't prevent the torus drive. You may be referring to the torus drive, but I'm pointing this out if it's part of the escape plan.

As for the "Thargoid Witchspace Jammer" hyperspacing itself out when it gets low energy -- there can be a bit of a delay to that and assumes it doesn't die in a single hit from a q-bomb or energy bomb. (Energy bombs often don't have enough power to destroy really tough ships...and they need to be watered down further to match how weak they were in original Elite.)

[Cody]

Something like this would have the welcome side-effect of discouraging use of the energy bomb to kill the Thargoids.

Oh yes! Clever! Blow the Tharg's and you blow the Tube Breaker up as well! You survive, but only so you can eventually starve to death...

Hm. I'm not sure I am following. If the Witchspace Jammer is the device which keeps your wormhole collapsed, the destruction of the device should make your wormhole re-appear. Or am I missing something? Therefore I'd say, no matter when and how the device is destroyed, the wormhole instantly re-opens.

I guess your reasoning is somehow different from mine, but I need some more elaboration to understand it.

The reasoning here was to somehow preclude using the energy bomb as a means of wiping the Thargoids and re-opening your wormhole... splash the Thargoids first, then set about finding and destroying the tube breaker(s).

Your fourth idea is appealing... yes, I like that idea.

[Mauiby de Fug]

Or several wormholes appear?

This would also be possible, but I would make it depend on the presence of other ships. If there are other yellow blips around you, and still exist when the Witchspace Jammer is destroyed, each of them could get its wormhole re-opening. In this case you would have to find "your" wormhole in order to get to your destination.

If you go down this path, presumably you'd be at the mid-point between two systems (unless you decided to misjump from a misjump), and the only systems that would let you misjump into that point would be the system you just came from, and the system you had originally targeted. So finding the wormhole to get to your destination shouldn't be that difficult...

[Gimi]

If you use alternative number 4, could I target and launch a missile (hard head preferably) and then destroy all three. I'm a bit worried that this becomes too difficult even for an intermediate Jameson. If I could target two of them and launch, lets say, two missiles to take it out it would sound more reasonable in my view. Then a Cobra with a full missile load could take out two with missiles and the third with lasers.

As for preference, alternative 4, absolutely, with my small reservation that is.

[Disembodied]

Option 4 sounds worth trying, certainly! I'm assuming that, most of the time anyway, the jammers wouldn't be attacked by the player until after the Thargoids have been destroyed.

The whole thing will, of course, only be a puzzle until the player solves it, but it's that first time that's the most important. Once they have learned the way out, players can start to choose their own preferred tactics if and when they misjump.

[DaddyHoggy]

Hm. I'm not sure I am following. If the Witchspace Jammer is the device which keeps your wormhole collapsed, the destruction of the device should make your wormhole re-appear. Or am I missing something? Therefore I'd say, no matter when and how the device is destroyed, the wormhole instantly re-opens.

I guess your reasoning is somehow different from mine, but I need some more elaboration to understand it.

Sorry, I was following on from something EV suggested (or I thought EV suggested).

My thought was this:

The Tube Breaker is a very complicated, delicate, trans-dimensional device. It can collapse Witchspace tunnels with some special Handwavium and it has the ability to re-establish the tunnels by shutting down and withdrawing from our normal 4D space using the reconnected tunnel(s) energy matrix to push itself out of our space into its own (it's bleeding the energy from the wormhole to pull itself into our space is what causes the collapse in the first place). If it is destroyed the tunnel(s) stay collapsed... Because it is the Tube Breaker which controls the reconnection. Therefore blowing it up with a Q-mine or E-bomb prevents this process from happening, if it's destroyed it does not need the energy to push itself out of our space and therefore no wormhole(s)! However, prodding it with a laser or two, destabilises its energy matrix and it cannot stay in our normal space (it's also an automatic defence mechanism to prevent destruction/capture). The Tube Breaker withdraws into its own dimension(s) and the wormhole(s) are re-established.

Doing it this way means that the player runs the risk if they wade in with q-mines and E-bombs of destroying the Tube Breaker and therefore their own actions are responsible for their post-battle marooning in interstellar space.

[Disembodied]

I think you've guddled up the quotes there ... you've attributed something Commander McLane said to me!

Doing it this way means that the player runs the risk if they wade in with q-mines and E-bombs of destroying the Tube Breaker and therefore their own actions are responsible for their post-battle marooning in interstellar space.

It's an interesting idea, but it might be over-complicating things a bit. The first time a player suffers a misjump is the most important one. It's usually going to be a horrible surprise, and they probably won't be looking at the (motionless and far-away) tube breaker(s) until after the fight is over and the screaming has stopped. That's when they're going to start to realise that they're literally in the middle of nowhere, they're going to have to try to work out how to escape, and what are those things over there that show up as Thargoids but don't seem to be attacking?

It would be best though if the jammers were immune to e-bombs (or at least tough enough to withstand one). They'll be far away, at the edge of scanner range: does the e-bomb effect dissipate with distance?

Would it also be possible to make them jam q-mines?

[Fatleaf]

Just as a side point, now that this thread has moved into more of a discussion of an upcoming oxp should it not belong in either Discussion, or Expansion Pack?

[Commander McLane]

Just as a side point, now that this thread has moved into more of a discussion of an upcoming oxp should it not belong in either Discussion, or Expansion Pack?

Never mind. For the time being all interested parties know where to find it, and when I get something ready for release (or testing), I'll post in Expansion Pack anyway.

If you go down this path, presumably you'd be at the mid-point between two systems (unless you decided to misjump from a misjump), and the only systems that would let you misjump into that point would be the system you just came from, and the system you had originally targeted. So finding the wormhole to get to your destination shouldn't be that difficult...

Yeah, that's quite obvious now that you've said it. So there are really only two possible directions: the player's target system or his system of origin.

I'm pretty sure asteroids and certainly Rock Hermits can mass-lock you from hyperspacing very near them, they just won't prevent the torus drive. You may be referring to the torus drive, but I'm pointing this out if it's part of the escape plan.

Good point. I may indeed have made incorrect assumptions from comparison to torus-drive mass-lock. Will have to test again.

As for the "Thargoid Witchspace Jammer" hyperspacing itself out when it gets low energy...

I am very reluctant to allow the Witchspace Jammer to jump out itself. The reason being that it also could only jump into one of the adjacent systems, and I don't feel that the Thargoids would do such a thing. Making it mis-jump to some other point in interstellar space also doesn't strike me as particularly logical. And unfortunately there are no other options, because we can't have a jump into nirvana.

The Tube Breaker is a very complicated, delicate, trans-dimensional device. It can collapse Witchspace tunnels with some special Handwavium and it has the ability to re-establish the tunnels by shutting down and withdrawing from our normal 4D space using the reconnected tunnel(s) energy matrix to push itself out of our space into its own (it's bleeding the energy from the wormhole to pull itself into our space is what causes the collapse in the first place). If it is destroyed the tunnel(s) stay collapsed... Because it is the Tube Breaker which controls the reconnection. Therefore blowing it up with a Q-mine or E-bomb prevents this process from happening, if it's destroyed it does not need the energy to push itself out of our space and therefore no wormhole(s)! However, prodding it with a laser or two, destabilises its energy matrix and it cannot stay in our normal space (it's also an automatic defence mechanism to prevent destruction/capture). The Tube Breaker withdraws into its own dimension(s) and the wormhole(s) are re-established.

Doing it this way means that the player runs the risk if they wade in with q-mines and E-bombs of destroying the Tube Breaker and therefore their own actions are responsible for their post-battle marooning in interstellar space.

It would be best though if the jammers were immune to e-bombs (or at least tough enough to withstand one). They'll be far away, at the edge of scanner range: does the e-bomb effect dissipate with distance?

Would it also be possible to make them jam q-mines?

I see the point about not making it too easy. If the player could take out all surrounding Thargoids plus the Witchspace Jammer(s) with one single energy bomb, there wouldn't be any fun in it. The same applies—in principle—to using a q-mine. Although this needs a chain of other ships in order to migrate. A q-bomb-blast has a radius of about 2.5km (I think), so it doesn't affect ships close to the edge of the scanner, unless it is carried through other ships. This makes it unlikely that the player will be able to take out four devices with one shot, making the Jammers safe from q-bomb abuse. The obvious solution against the energy bomb is to give them a high enough max_energy to survive the blast (which to my knowledge doesn't dissipate with distance, but simply subtracts a fixed value from each ship's energy).

It is even possible to create a fail safe for the case of q-bombs. If the last Jammer is destroyed because of a q-bomb (the script can check this) no wormhole would appear. This way it wouldn't be necessary to introduce a q-bomb-jammer. I wouldn't like that, because since Second_Wave.oxp Thargoids are using q-bombs themselves. Therefore it wouldn't make sense for them to jam cascades.

The same fail-safe is not possible, however, for energy bombs. Damage from energy bombs is indistinguishable from damage from laser fire for a script, I'm afraid. Therefore the effects of energy bombs cannot be countered in the same way as for a q-mine, only by giving the objects sufficient energy.

[Commander McLane]

Some tests:

1) The good news: The Witchjammer does also block hyperjumps if it has scanClass CLASS_ROCK.

The bad news: Thargoids are attacking it if it has CLASS_ROCK.

That seems a no-go. I have to give them CLASS_THARGOID and risk the Navy to attack them. Perhaps they could get one or two escorts each? But at the end of the day this would only add to the total number of Thargoids in the vicinity, and that's not what this idea is about.

2) An energy bomb has a destructive energy of 1000. Setting the energy of the Jammers above that lets them survive the blast. It doesn't exactly make them easy targets for new Jamesons, though. They have no armament and therefore don't shoot back, but still you need two military salvos to take one out. Take that times four (or times three if some friendly helpers got rid of one), and you have rather an endurance test than a puzzle. Would that be fine as well?

[JD]

What range does an energy bomb have? I haven't used one in Oolite, so I haven't witnessed one first hand since my BBC Micro days, but assuming they do have a certain blast radius, could you place the jammers sufficiently far apart that a single energy bomb couldn't take out more than one? Would that be an acceptable way of avoiding making them overly resilient?

[Disembodied]

An energy bomb has a destructive energy of 1000. Setting the energy of the Jammers above that lets them survive the blast. It doesn't exactly make them easy targets for new Jamesons, though. They have no armament and therefore don't shoot back, but still you need two military salvos to take one out. Take that times four (or times three if some friendly helpers got rid of one), and you have rather an endurance test than a puzzle. Would that be fine as well?

The energy bomb/q-mine aspect is always going to be there, at least to the extent that it's already there as a way for the player to survive the Thargoid attack.

How about offsetting the layout of the jammers, so that only one or two of them are on the scanner at any one time? That way it's unlikely that an ebomb or even a q-mine could take them all out.

Edit: ninja'd by JD!

[Smivs]

Could you give it a high energy (to avoid destruction by Energy Bombs) but a low - zero recharge rate so it can easily be whittled away?