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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:51 pm
by Commander McLane
Smivs wrote:
Just a quick thought...would it be possible to Save at Rock Hermits? No real change to canon, and they already have most of the pertinant features of Main Stations.
No, they haven't. They are just like any randomly created station, which all share the same obvious difference to main stations: they are created randomly, and if you exit and re-enter the system, they may not exist anymore. Technically saving and reloading is very similar to exiting and re-entering, therefore the very Rock Hermit you saved in may not exist when you reload the game—which is exactly the contradiction which so far necessitated the limitation of saving-and-loading-facilities to main stations.

Alternative idea: reliably create another pseudo-main station at the opposite side of the planet. It would work like a main station, except technically it wouldn't be the main station, and it wouldn't check for the player's bounty when docking. It is already part of the backstory (canon) that in fact there is more than one station orbiting each planet, so we could just "make visible" another one of the bunch.

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:07 pm
by Smivs
Commander McLane wrote:
Smivs wrote:
Just a quick thought...would it be possible to Save at Rock Hermits? No real change to canon, and they already have most of the pertinant features of Main Stations.
No, they haven't. They are just like any randomly created station, which all share the same obvious difference to main stations: they are created randomly, and if you exit and re-enter the system, they may not exist anymore. Technically saving and reloading is very similar to exiting and re-entering, therefore the very Rock Hermit you saved in may not exist when you reload the game—which is exactly the contradiction which so far necessitated the limitation of saving-and-loading-facilities to main stations.
OK, that's that idea shot down in flames. :(
Commander McLane wrote:
Alternative idea: reliably create another pseudo-main station at the opposite side of the planet. It would work like a main station, except technically it wouldn't be the main station, and it wouldn't check for the player's bounty when docking. It is already part of the backstory (canon) that in fact there is more than one station orbiting each planet, so we could just "make visible" another one of the bunch.
Would this be do-able? On the face of it it seems like a good idea. It could perhaps be maintained by the planetary authorities rather than Galcop, and therefore wouldn't be limited to galcop 'Law'. You could even release slaves there.

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:54 pm
by Killer Wolf
if you spawn the Rock Hermits using the pseudorandom stuff like my Wasp Nest or Sothis, then the stations should appear in random systems but consistently so, so this might be a valid workaround. there is however the problem (or is there, i'm not sure how the generation mechanics work) regarding the genning of the place : the Nest is genned up on exit from hyperspace, eg. if you load Oolite, then your save game, will the station be there? would you have to gen one up on launch too, first checking if one exists etc?

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:11 pm
by DaddyHoggy
Disembodied wrote:
There are two factors to be considered here: canon and gameplay. They are of course linked: canon (insofar as there is an agreed-on canon for Oolite) is what enables "gameplay-in-the-head", allowing us to imagine the larger, richer universe around us. However, the gameplay itself is what is ultimately important. When canon and gameplay collide, gameplay has to win every time. When a canon starts to dictate what you can do, no matter how much fun it might be, then it stops being a game and starts becoming a cult. ;)

When people object to things like laser coolers, it's not (I don't think) because such devices are not canon: it's because they will have a negative effect on gameplay, in this case by making it too easy. Witchdrive injectors weren't canon, either, but they enhance gameplay by giving players (and NPCs) more options, with an attached cost – so nobody objects. All the benefits of a laser cooler, though – being able to shoot for longer – could be got simply from learning to play the game better and becoming a better shot.

The current setup, where players can only save in main system stations that are controlled and patrolled by GalCop, has been inherited from the original 32K game, and there are no doubt strong program-architecture reasons for keeping things this way. The problem, from a gameplay point of view, is that this doesn't allow for the best player experience of a criminal lifestyle, as DH has pointed out.

An optimum solution (if we assume that work gets magically done for no cost ... ;)) would be to alter the program to allow players to save anywhere, or at least in any station. Then all sorts of new stations and in-game lifestyles can crop up.

An acceptable (to me, anyway – not that I'd use it) kludge, though, would be to make certain systems friendly to players with criminal rankings. The obvious candidates for this would be Anarchy systems. I firmly believe that it is possible (especially if we include alien societies) to have peaceful, even idyllic, anarchy worlds: however, we're looking for a quick fix here, not a political thesis ;), and the easiest way to bend the canon to fit would be to assume that yes, Anarchy systems used to be part of the Co-operative, back when it was running relatively smoothly, but now with the Thargoid threat pressing ever harder, things are breaking down. The Co-operative needs its member planets to co-operate. The Anarchy worlds, lacking any form of central government, aren't providing any support to the crews in the station. The Viper pilots and station personnel have not been paid for months, and the other Co-op worlds are refusing to bail them out. Eventually things reach a tipping point and the co-op structure collapses in the Anarchies. It's not that the stations all fall into pirate hands, it's just that Co-op control has ended. There's nobody to fly or even maintain the Vipers, and nobody to check the ships coming in or going out. Maybe it's a sign of things to come for the Co-operative ...

As I say, this is a quick fix which could allow criminal players a more immersive experience. The reason for doing it would be to enhance gameplay. If it does, then it's easy to rewrite the canon a bit, for those that want to play this way.
I think - from two different approaches - we now walk the same common path? 8)

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:47 am
by Disembodied
DaddyHoggy wrote:
I think - from two different approaches - we now walk the same common path? 8)
Definitely! :) If the devs can allow saving in any station (or at least a broader class of station, rather than just the main system one) then pirate bases, smugglers' dens, etc. and their associated lifestyle choices all become possible. If not/in the meantime, allowing certain systems to fall out of Co-op control (thus producing non-GalCop main stations that the, um, legally challenged can visit safely) would seem to me to be an acceptable OXP compromise.

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:02 am
by DaddyHoggy
Disembodied wrote:
DaddyHoggy wrote:
I think - from two different approaches - we now walk the same common path? 8)
Definitely! :) If the devs can allow saving in any station (or at least a broader class of station, rather than just the main system one) then pirate bases, smugglers' dens, etc. and their associated lifestyle choices all become possible. If not/in the meantime, allowing certain systems to fall out of Co-op control (thus producing non-GalCop main stations that the, um, legally challenged can visit safely) would seem to me to be an acceptable OXP compromise.
I love this forum! 8)

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:00 pm
by Killer Wolf
" then pirate bases, smugglers' dens, etc. and their associated lifestyle choices all become possible"
as do my plans for an interstellar cat house!

..

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:30 am
by Lestradae
I want to summarise two or three ideas that seem to verge on "perhaps doable" "doable if someone spends ages on the task and testing the results" and such a someone can be found:

Would it be possible to enable a "save not anywhere and not on carriers but in some (specifically definable) additional stations like Rock Hermits, SIRFs, Navy Stations etc." option like this:

* The station has to have a "can_save" option defined in its shipdata plist

* Mission stations or stations that have a lot of dynamic changing stuff involved and carriers (which are supposedly on the move most of the time) probably shouldn't get this "can_save" option

* The savegame could contain the complete system state of everything in scanner range. That way, even if a pseudo-random thingy is no longer where it was, the most important surroundings of any alternate save-station would still be there - navy ships around the Navy Station, asteroids around the Rock Hermits etc.

That should work, shouldn't it, and reflect the average general consensus emerging, or am I mistaken?

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:33 am
by DaddyHoggy
I'd say you've caught the gist of it there L...

Re: ..

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:47 am
by Kaks
Lestradae wrote:
I want to summarise two or three ideas that seem to verge on "perhaps doable":

Would it be possible to enable a "save not anywhere and not on carriers but in some (specifically definable) additional stations like Rock Hermits, SIRFs, Navy Stations etc." option like this:

* The station has to have a "can_save" option defined in its shipdata plist

* Mission stations or stations that have a lot of dynamic changing stuff involved and carriers (which are supposedly on the move most of the time) probably shouldn't get this "can_save" option

* The savegame could contain the complete system state of everything in scanner range. That way, even if a pseudo-random thingy is no longer where it was, the most important surroundings of any alternate save-station would still be there - navy ships around the Navy Station, asteroids around the Rock Hermits etc.

That should work, shouldn't it, and reflect the average general consensus emerging, or am I mistaken?
*Sigh* as I said a while ago:

Not without some major modifications that will affect absolutely everything in the game, at least in my opinion.

If anyone wants to have all the 'fun' and weeks of testing related to it, they're more than welcome to it. I'm personally not ever going to get near it until at least 1.76.

Re: ..

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:00 am
by another_commander
Kaks wrote:
Lestradae wrote:
I want to summarise two or three ideas that seem to verge on "perhaps doable":

Would it be possible to enable a "save not anywhere and not on carriers but in some (specifically definable) additional stations like Rock Hermits, SIRFs, Navy Stations etc." option like this:

* The station has to have a "can_save" option defined in its shipdata plist

* Mission stations or stations that have a lot of dynamic changing stuff involved and carriers (which are supposedly on the move most of the time) probably shouldn't get this "can_save" option

* The savegame could contain the complete system state of everything in scanner range. That way, even if a pseudo-random thingy is no longer where it was, the most important surroundings of any alternate save-station would still be there - navy ships around the Navy Station, asteroids around the Rock Hermits etc.

That should work, shouldn't it, and reflect the average general consensus emerging, or am I mistaken?
*Sigh* as I said a while ago:

Not without some major modifications that will affect absolutely everything in the game, at least in my opinion.

If anyone wants to have all the 'fun' and weeks of testing related to it, they're more than welcome to it. I'm personally not ever going to get near it until at least 1.76.
Quoted in bold for maximum emphasis.
Estimated time to add the can_save attribute: 15 minutes, including testing.
Estimated time to do the rest: Ages, not including testing.

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:55 am
by DaddyHoggy
@Kaks, A_C and rest of Devs - your efforts are never taken lightly (not by me for certain) and I hope the discussion hasn't lead you to believe that anybody expects this to be a 15 minute job, but at least now the Devs know what the user community would like Oolite to do at some point in the future.

Do the Devs think there are some useful and valid points to this discussion/request? Because without buy-in from the Devs its never going to happen ever, it'll forever live on the "too difficult" pile.

Could I suggest, as this saving-in-non-main-stations comes up quite a lot, that it's stickied somewhere, so that as new users arrive and its asked again and again, we can just point them to a single thread/post.

I'd obviously like it to happen, but I love my Oolite as it is and will still love it even if this oddity remains in perpetuity , if we can put it to bed, tucked up besides proper transparent textures, reflections and local illuminating light sources, then we'll all remember once again, how much the game has already moved and the OXPers can focus again on new clever stuff that manages to work within the current limitations of the game and forget about the unlikely changes until they're less unlikely!

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:38 am
by Cmdr James
I think it is useful to know that people would like the feature, and I think thats been reasonably clear since it was discussed and the save anywhere OXP was created.

Personally I dont find any of this thread brings anything new to the development side, it remains a known feature request, and remains at least for the moment not likely to be implemented in the near future.

However, that doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed. I do think it is good to raise ideas and discuss them, and at the very least this shows continuing interest in the feature.

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:26 pm
by Kaks
Sure, it does show that the continued interest is there, and sure I agree with Cmdr James.

However, my *sigh* was because I thought I had already made it clear a few posts back that this is not 'perhaps doable' - by any stretch of the imagination - again, IMO.

And again, if anyone of you guys were to take on this - quite monumental - task I'd be more than happy if you were to prove that 'perhaps doable' theory right! :D

..

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:10 pm
by Lestradae
Kaks wrote:
And again, if anyone of you guys were to take on this - quite monumental - task I'd be more than happy if you were to prove that 'perhaps doable' theory right! :D
I edited my posting above to better reflect the difficulty of the task as I stand corrected (which is quite easy on this occasion as I had no idea how difficult it would be to begin with).

Please note that I am aware of all of you dev's working for amongst many others also my gaming fun for free and I am not intending to belittle that!

Is it OK to throw ideas into the arena which you devs then comment for their doability or are you in a "leave us alone and let us reach MNSR stage" state atm?

Otherwise, and last but surely not least in Frame we trust :P