Oolite Bulletins

Disembodied wrote:

Personally, I find that grotesquely unfair: surely it makes it much harder to learn, if no-one tells you when you've made a mistake?

+1 in the strongest way possible. The lengths to which teachers are willing to go to not 'disadvantage' one portion of their class, at the expense of the rest of their class, is just ridiculous.

To be fair, I know many teachers are just as exasperated by this, and are having these 'guidelines' forced onto them, but anyone having difficulty with their confidence clearly needs specific help - not thrown into an illusion of competence only to have it removed later on.

Disembodied wrote:

I have been told, by a trainee teacher of English, that they're not supposed to correct spelling mistakes now unless it's an "important word" – this being defined by what the written piece is about.

Institutionalised ignorance. This is a fine recipe for ensuring a further drifting apart of levels of education based on families' financial backgrounds: More of those who can afford it will send their kids to private schools (assuming they still teach spelling), leaving more of those who need extra help behind in public schools who in turn continue to lower their standards so that those unfortunate kids will not even be able to write a resume that is not immediately thrown into the bin. What a sad outlook. Doom and gloom. Maybe a bit over the top However, are we sufficiently off-topic yet to move this to Outworld?

<sits down at table with a glass of vintage red>

A thoroughly interesting thread… as a boy from a working class family, who had the fifties equivalent of ‘estuary english’ smoothed out of him with a rod (literally), and ‘received pronunciation’ forced into him with a well aimed missile of some sort from the schoolmasters (mortarboards and robes… that dates it, doesn’t it? However, they were excellent teachers), I have learnt that communicating is the really important thing. I’ve travelled widely, in many countries, and getting your meaning over, no matter how it is done linguistically or grammatically, is paramount.

I hate ‘textspeak’ and suchlike, but I have puzzled bits of it out (often with the help of the urban dictionary) in order to understand. My trouble is… I can tailor my spoken language to whatever fits at any given time, and here in the urban wasteland of ‘pajero county’ that is a handy skill, but no matter how hard I try not to, I always write in the style of ‘received pronunciation’… I just can’t help it.

maik wrote:

However, are we sufficiently off-topic yet to move this to Outworld?

Let it stay where it is… fiction is all about communication, on many levels, which this thread has ably demonstrated.

<quaffs wine… sighs, and re-fills glass>

...and sad to say, teaching has often become a work of fiction in recent years. I only retired from the education sector two years ago, and was very glad not to have to participate in what was often a painful degenerative condition any more.

I went through the grammar school process, and also became passionate about communication in the following years, particularly semantics. I struggle with management-speak as much as I do with text-speak, and regard both with equal contempt. English at its best is a rich language able to convey both passions and science, poetry and technology. Sure, there are some specific areas that some other language might fulfil more effectively, but it can do pretty well at most things.

It will be a tragedy if that is thrown away in the desire to ensure that no-one is penalised for ignorance - I thought that was what education was supposed to do - remove ignorance, not pretend is doesn't matter!!

...sorry...rant over...

El Viejo wrote:

<sits down at table with a glass of vintage red>

Ahhh, nice one! <pulls up a a chair and pours himself a glass, too>

El Viejo wrote:

I’ve travelled widely, in many countries, and getting your meaning over, no matter how it is done linguistically or grammatically, is paramount.

Very true. But doesn't that mostly apply to spoken language? In written communication I trip over misuses of words (your, you're, etc.), they interrupt the flow, I have to re-read and think about what the author meant to say, maybe he used the right word after all but messed up the grammar or left another word out, only to realise that indeed it was just a question of your vs. you're.

I retired from the business of ignorance banishment over ten years ago, and I am ashamed to admit my previous life to new acquaintances.

Ignorance is the badge to an increasingly large and overcrowded modern tribe ... and one to be worn with pride by all accounts!

Thanks for the opportunity to vent a little.

Don't forget the cheese before the first sip of wine!

Reading the above comments about the state of education is saddening.
Is this only a british malaise, or is the same sort of thing happening in europe and elsewhere?

El Viejo wrote:

Reading the above comments about the state of education is saddening.
Is this only a british malaise, or is the same sort of thing happening in europe and elsewhere?

If you haven't been to rural Africa you know nothing yet about the sad state formal education can be in. Which is not to say that the same people cannot be very educated in things which are not taught at schools.

I’ve not been to Africa at all… but I have been to rural India, and other similar countries, so I possibly know what you mean. Unlike some in Britain, the kids there are so eager to learn… if only the facilities were there for them.

Disembodied wrote:

DaddyHoggy wrote:

Were allowed/available I prefer to perch in the rafters.

I'm quite happy with txt speech - in text messages. I can just about cope with it in emails, but the fact that teachers are now issued with instructions to be more tolerant of it in exams (where the meaning of the answer is "clear") clearly shows that giving in a little to the tide of change can have unforeseen consequences.

I have been told, by a trainee teacher of English, that they're not supposed to correct spelling mistakes now unless it's an "important word" – this being defined by what the written piece is about. Personally, I find that grotesquely unfair: surely it makes it much harder to learn, if no-one tells you when you've made a mistake?

This is supposed to be "the Information Age". We should value accuracy in the transmission of information. English is particularly bendy, it must be admitted: ultimately some disputes boil down to "my style guide's better that your style guide". But poor grammar, spelling and punctuation can disrupt the smooth and easy flow of information.

There are aspects of grammar which are purely pedantic: the split infinitive, for example. There is no reason why anyone should get their knickers in a twist over a split infinitive. However, I think that, from a craft perspective, people should try to know as much as possible about the "right" way to do things: once they have that firmly under their belts, they can go on to start bending the rules, confident that they know what it is they're bending in the first place.

I would agree that it is a good thing to fully understand the "law" before turning your attention to the art of bending, breaking or ignoring it completely. If one chooses to disregard then fine but to be oblivious is a cardinal sin.

How far have we gotten from original topic...

...hand me a glass of wine please.

Sarin wrote:

How far have we gotten from original topic...

...hand me a glass of wine please.

Some cheese with that?

maik wrote:

Sarin wrote:

How far have we gotten from original topic...

...hand me a glass of wine please.

Some cheese with that?

I just had some of both. Only that it wasn't a heavy red wine, but a temperature-adequate rosé.

Commander McLane wrote:

I just had some of both. Only that it wasn't a heavy red wine, but a temperature-adequate rosé.

Aaah, good times

maik wrote:

Commander McLane wrote:

I just had some of both. Only that it wasn't a heavy red wine, but a temperature-adequate rosé.

Aaah, good times

Good times, indeed. By the way, being a Rheingau (rich agricultural, feudal, tech level 6) ( most amusing, but aren't you a little harsh with the tech level?) resident: what are you drinking?