Oolite Bulletins

To avoid confusion, suggest this is split of into a new thread outside the Oolite Multiplayer thread. I tend to ignore this thread, but this is an interesting discussion. "Oolite economic model oxp" or it's like.

Siberian wrote:

Describe "feature is properly implemented". How would it work?...

Thing which I currently miss in a game is more realistic or consistent economic model.

Right, so you don't want a multi-player Oolite, you do want a different economic model. That is a very different requirement!

Siberian wrote:

Small example: as I see it's not natural to constantly have big differences in prices on two neighbor systems.

Perfectly normal economics. Wales has good sheep land so produces and exports lamb and wool but imports shoes from England where leather is cheap because it's a waste product of the beef industry. So for centuries people trade lamb east and shoes west.

Leesti must have a well-educated workforce and an environment suitable for high-tech industry, hence it produces computers cheaply. It is probably polluted and the workforce depressed and need of a stiff drink after work. Diso must have an agricultural environment good for producing high quality alcoholic drinks but the workforce is too busy getting drunk to get an education and build factories for themselves, hence they will trade booze for computers.

Siberian wrote:

It is just boring to make a fortune by transferring Computers from Leesti to Diso and bringing Liqueur/Wines back.

Oh, so you are bored - is that the problem you wanted fixed? Not a mult-player Oolite.

So do something else more interesting like cargo contracts which, when you have a very good reputation, pay very well. They get you to places you would otherwise never visit.

Siberian wrote:

From another side, it should be possible that such difference appears from time to time, but it should eventually level off (as other traders - players or NPCs discover that "easy money" possibility).

Greece has been exporting wine and Italy importing fine cloth for a very long time now and it doesn't look like levelling off yet. You see, the price does not level off, what levels off is the number of space ships / cargo containers making the trip. It will always be a little bit profitable.

Siberian wrote:

Imagine that one system, which is technologically advanced can produce large number of computers. And on another system some disaster happened so they urgently need computing equipment there. Of course market price for computers will go high there, so on first system there will appear contracts for delivering computers to that second system. As soon as second system has enough computers delivered (by player(s) or NPC) or locally produced the price for computers will fall and it won't be so profitable anymore to sell these goods there. Speed of producing goods, their prime cost, maximum available quantities, demand etc. will depend on system parameters and some random factors, like disaster events.

Aha! Now we're talking about something that can be done without breaking anything: random events that impact prices and quantities available.

So, for example, every 10 to 30 Ooniverse days there is a newsflash like this: "An <event> happened in planet <random planet> which has <increased / decreased> the demand for <commodity>". The price for that <commodity> is then either very low or very high in just that one system. Then, over the next 10/30/100 Ooniverse days, the price slowly returns to its usual price.

In that way people can choose to head straight there if it is nearby to make some quick money, or not.

Example OXP output wrote:

"Engineers in Ineddien announce sales of a new, long-awaited, production line packing system, the SquishIt 2000. Demand for this machinery is high and waiting lists are long." = Machinery goes to 500 Credits but the amount available drops to 25% of normal.

"GilesSoft (Ceused) Corporation has finally released Oolite IV. New computers are now in high demand!" = Computers high in proce, none available to be sold.

"The OO Good Food Guide awards Diriis a 5* rating for its Goat Soup." = Food prices go up 10x on Diriis.

"Onrace Civil War ceasefire agreed! POWs being traded on the open market." = dirt cheap Slaves available in large numbers.

"Uslainian Spotted Wolf develops rabies from contaminated Trubble" = dirt cheap Furs in large numbers.

"Teatriin factory production wars heightens - massive overproduction of Teatriinian Oubeab Brandy occurring!" = dirt cheap Liquor/Wines in large numbers.

"Ceorge Civil War ceasefire - weapons armistice agreed" = lots of expensive weapons available and at high prices, so it is is hard to sell your valuable imports.

"Massive Orusge solar storm destroys infrastructure. Computers and machinery needed urgently in exchange for removing Radioactives" = computers & machinery expensive and none in stock, lots of radioactives available for free.

Back to the multi-player topic: The only kind of interaction with other players that I could imagine is some sort of in-game IRC to use while cruising the space lanes. I imagine the number of players that Oolite has is probably sufficient to see the occasional message from someone who just feels like sharing what is happening in his or her game.

Complications: There would need to be a blocking system in place to tune out people who get on your nerves.

Draw-backs: The game in your head will be impeded when someone happens to be in the same system as you, talking about stuff that does not happen in your game. Or when someone talks about what is happening during a mission which you also happen to be on but which cannot conceivably happen twice.

SandJ wrote:

Siberian wrote:

It is just boring to make a fortune by transferring Computers from Leesti to Diso and bringing Liqueur/Wines back.

Oh, so you are bored - is that the problem you wanted fixed? Not a mult-player Oolite.
So do something else more interesting like cargo contracts which, when you have a very good reputation, pay very well. They get you to places you would otherwise never visit.

Or try trading in narcotics for a while... a very volatile market, is that. Life as a contrabandista is rarely dull, and you can find yourself in some 'nice' backwater systems.

How about something that is multiplayer but doesn't break the model? Like where a single ship has a crew that work together as a team to perform the various tasks that in Oolite are juggled by the commander... any mileage in that?

Perfectly normal economics. Wales has good sheep land so produces and exports lamb and wool but imports shoes from England where leather is cheap because it's a waste product of the beef industry. So for centuries people trade lamb east and shoes west.

So it is likewise easy to make a fortune by buying wool in Wales, selling it in England and bring shoes back like it is in Oolite?

So do something else more interesting like cargo contracts which, when you have a very good reputation, pay very well. They get you to places you would otherwise never visit.

Let me rephrase my thought - it is boring to constantly have that "easy money" possibility in the game, when you don't have to use your brain and still make a capital within a short time period (of real time). It's like playing the chess with an opponent (another human or just computer) when you're 100% sure that you going to win after 10-th move, because you can completely predict that opponent's actions. Not worth even trying. Of course you can sacrifice some of your pieces deliberately, to postpone your winning a little bit, but that doesn't change the picture in general - currently it is a single player who controls the economy of Oolite Universe (to a certain degree) and not vice versa. It's quite hard not to win.

Aha! Now we're talking about something that can be done without breaking anything: random events that impact prices and quantities available.

Not totally random. That would be just a small extension of contracting system.
I'm thinking about more complex approach. Everything should be related to each other.
For example: probability of great war happening on anarchy system is much more higher, than on democracy system. If war happens in the system with low tech level, then that system will demand a lot of weapons, and probably the price for slaves will drop. On high tech level system the consequences of a great war will be more disastrous and probably they will need a lot of simple things like food and textiles in exchange of luxuries and precious metals. Something like that.

Not only the prices, but also kinds and quantities of goods produced in each system should depend on this system data - tech level, political system, population, species kind.... Too strange to expect big number of computers available both on market and as contracts in the system with low tech level even if prices for computers are sky high (for very low level systems the price should be low, as probably, they don't know how to use this computing equipment ). Each system could have a specialty they good at, so they can produce these goods in bigger amounts and lower prices. Quantities of certain goods produced in the system (and available both on market and as contracts) can be more dependent on population in case if tech level is not high enough (when it is not possible to use automation).
If there's an event which caused an increase of demand in one of the systems for specific good or goods, then it's naturally to expect a lot of traders traveling to this system to use the opportunity, as a result the level of piracy should increase in this system and its neighbors for as long as demand is high. If there's not enough of police force (because of system characteristics), then there would be a lot of fights causing traders to loose their goods, which in its turn will slow down market saturation.

And so on...

Finally each system characteristics could also change over time. It's natural to expect an increase (decrease in the case of war) of population, which will impact economics again, sometimes political regimes could change, system can evolve to a next tech level (or degrade) etc. But I guess, this is already too much and "not possible" (or that would be "another game")

Oolite is a single player game, about making it a multi player game I don't think it is possible due to 8 Galaxies and 256 systems in each. How many other players playing it online will be at your galaxy and the system you are in? There must be billions of players playing at the same time to get at least one other player at your system and at the right galaxy.

And I do not believe in multi player games. Any ideas are well come but as the first post in this topic indicates, the devs are not willing to do it. I would like oolite to be single player, but for those who are trying to convert it to multi player, good luck. I don't think it is possible with a limited players playing it.

As an example, my latest save file for my commander is at Oredaris at G8, I would suggest for the commanders to post their locations, and I would not expect any two to be same apart from Lave

Siberian wrote:

Finally each system characteristics could also change over time. It's natural to expect an increase (decrease in the case of war) of population, which will impact economics again, sometimes political regimes could change, system can evolve to a next tech level (or degrade) etc. But I guess, this is already too much and "not possible" (or that would be "another game")

I think you have to separate "possible" from "worthwhile". A great deal is possible, but in game terms I doubt if it's worthwhile. The only changes which should be made to a game are those which increase the amount of fun experienced by the player: making changes because they make the game-universe more "realistic" is usually an invitation to disaster. Do we want a more dynamic trading system (for those who want it)? Yes please! Do we want an accurate and sensible simulation of the economics of a fictional, non-sensible and randomly generated sci-fi universe? Er ...

Again, it's a question of scale. Oolite is not a galaxy-simulator: it's a first-person dogfighting game with a bit of trading thrown in to give the player a reason to go anywhere. Players are individual space pilots, hauling small quantities of goods here and there across the universe, and are not going to be affecting planetary economics within their own lifetimes. There is no need for monitoring the population levels of this or that system, or their tech levels, or who's winning which civil war, and fiddling around with the prices accordingly. Would a Feudal system that's gone Communist become more or less Industrialised? That might depend, I suppose, on whether it went down the "Electrification of the Nation" route or the "Make Everyone Be a Peasant Farmer" route ... If events always played out the same way, we'd be back to the "boring" problem again. What we need is a bit of a race – so there's opportunity, but it's time-limited – and a bit of danger – so there might be more pirates, or someone might get very angry with you if you fail to make your urgent delivery, or you might lose a pile of cash. That's enough, I think.

What Disembodied said!

Okti wrote:

I would suggest for the commanders to post their locations

Currently docked at Celaqula, part of the Maraus Hub... the 'sweetspot' in G7!

Main Commander is currently at Onusan in G7, heading for the top right corner where he'll be jumping to G8.
My 2Cr worth...Multiplayer wouldn't work, and therefore ain't gonna happen.
And anyway I regularly take on groups of 15+ 'ToughGuys Apocalypse' pirates for fun...do you really want to 'meet' me?

Smivs wrote:

I regularly take on groups of 15+ 'ToughGuys Apocalypse' pirates for fun...do you really want to 'meet' me?

Absolutely!

I'll follow you until the Toughguys Pirates attack you, then I shall attack you too. After all, since I won't be running your ToughGuys Pirates.OXP, but I will be running my 'enhanced' Hired Guns.OXP with 32 Iron Arse Vipers with hardhead missiles - and you won't - I'll be having smoked kippers for breakfast with a side order of cooked pumpkin head.

Shame I'm in Galaxy 5.

So, remind me again why multi-player won't work...

Located at Teanrebi of the Pulsar Worlds (G1)

Yes, Oolite is the pinnacle of single player space combat/trading games. Too much would be lost in any conversion to multiplayer for that to be acceptable. So what is possible? A multi-player crew for a single ship. A console for each player that deals with a different component of the game. Navigation, tactical, purseri and an overview of all for the commander to base decisions on. I accept that it is not multi player in the sense of EVE online but it is, I think, a tenable niche that other developers will find it difficult to rapidly occupy. It can also be used at venues where there are people that would like to form a crew and pit themselves against an Ooniverse.

Walk with me a little way... it's possible to fly a Cobra solo but it's also soul destroying, years plying the tradelanes and many hours spent in isolation playing kreigsspiel against the AI whilst the ship traverses the interstellar void that seperates the circles of firelight that we call worlds. That's why there is a chair for the copilot/navigator. It should not be left empty?

SandJ wrote:

I'll follow you until the Toughguys Pirates attack you, then I shall attack you too. After all, since I won't be running your ToughGuys Pirates.OXP, but I will be running my 'enhanced' Hired Guns.OXP with 32 Iron Arse Vipers with hardhead missiles - and you won't - I'll be having smoked kippers for breakfast with a side order of cooked pumpkin head.

Shame I'm in Galaxy 5.

So, remind me again why multi-player won't work...

Bring it on! I'm only 2 galaxies away I don't need henchmen, by the way, and if any of yours survived in any state to cause me trouble I'd cloak
</ testosterone overdose>

Okti wrote:

As an example, my latest save file for my commander is at Oredaris at G8, I would suggest for the commanders to post their locations, and I would not expect any two to be same apart from Lave

Currently orbiting the clone world of Teorge in G1, refuelling for the final leg of the journey to Sotera, where hopefully this hold full of Duralium (Esanbe Stainless) will fetch a good price.

Okti wrote:

As an example, my latest save file for my commander is at Oredaris at G8, I would suggest for the commanders to post their locations, and I would not expect any two to be same apart from Lave

Laesinma, in the top right corner of the bottom left quadrant of G5 – not so much a backwater, more a sump ...