Oolite Bulletins

Hello Ahruman, nice to hear from you again.

Ahruman wrote:

8-bit paletted textures are converted to 32-bit RGBA in memory. Essentially no graphics cards support paletted textures natively (because it would require twice as many memory reads per fragment). 8-bit greyscale textures are supported, however.

But the graphics card is only one side of the medal - isn't it?

I've reduced all textures (except the 32-Bit ones) in Oolite and all used oxps and the memory usage was lowered (before >800MB Virtual RAM - after <330MB) in an system with ~100 objects in it on my computer. And the cache-transaction is reduced too.

Could you explain this a little bit more, please? It seems to be an essential info.

Svengali wrote:

Hello Ahruman, nice to hear from you again.

Ahruman wrote:

8-bit paletted textures are converted to 32-bit RGBA in memory. Essentially no graphics cards support paletted textures natively (because it would require twice as many memory reads per fragment). 8-bit greyscale textures are supported, however.

But the graphics card is only one side of the medal - isn't it?

I've reduced all textures (except the 32-Bit ones) in Oolite and all used oxps and the memory usage was lowered (before >800MB Virtual RAM - after <330MB) in an system with ~100 objects in it on my computer. And the cache-transaction is reduced too.

Sorry, you’re imagining things. Textures are converted to 32-bit RGBA when they’re loaded. Not doing this would incur extra overhead each time a texture is uploaded, which may be many times depending on video memory load and/or cause more memory to be used by forcing the system to keep a redundant copy in RGBA format. Using paletted images will at best save some space on disk, and not even that is certain (reducing the number of colours but saving as RGB may result in better compression).

Sorry, you’re imagining things. Textures are converted to 32-bit RGBA when they’re loaded. Not doing this would incur extra overhead each time a texture is uploaded, which may be many times depending on video memory load and/or cause more memory to be used by forcing the system to keep a redundant copy in RGBA format. Using paletted images will at best save some space on disk, and not even that is certain (reducing the number of colours but saving as RGB may result in better compression).

Maybe I'm stupid, but...

Now does converting textures to 8-bit make a difference or not?

It would be very interesting for me (could reduce system drag for RS bigtime if it worked) and I`m sure not only for me.



L

Is it still worth converting to 8-bit to reduce the OXP file size or will this put an extra strain on Oolite by having to fill in the extra bit planes?

Lestradae wrote:

Best served with cooled System Redux, a smattering of Griff`s stations and spiced with Pagroove stations.

I like the look of the enhanced station skins, but at least in the version I tried, it replaces torus and transhab stations with dodos, icos, and cories. This simply will not do!

Now System Redux, that's da bomb! I'd really miss it if I had to remove it for some reason. More, more!

Lestradae wrote:

... a Navy Constitution, the (as yet) most powerful ship in Oolite ...

No kidding. I ran into a Fugitive Constitution out near the witchpoint beacon one day, so figured I'd take a shot at it. There were already four or five police vessels firing on it, and it was behaving like a wounded buffalo, not firing back but just lumbering along taking the punishment. (Wonder which AI it was running!)

I blew off almost all of its subentities, until it was just the "engineering section" and the (no longer connected) tiny bridge section flying along in formation. But despite hitting it squarely with three hardheads in rapid succession, and emptying my military laser into it repeatedly, as fast as it would cool down, plus the cops actually hitting it (instead of firing past it, poor blind fools) from time to time, it never even flinched. I was wondering at the time if a nuclear torpedo might have some effect! Probably a Q-bomb would work, too, eh?

Finally, the poor beleagured thing tried to dock with the nearby Pi-42 and blew itself to shreds. It was kinda sad.

@Caracal:

Could it be that you are running RS version 3.01?

Strange behaviour could happen because the roles were not clearly defined (you could get fugitive police vessels, for example) and that could lead to a ship getting fired on by police but not responding ... this has been completely fixed for 3.02.

Second reason, the Navy Constitution of version 3.02 has a rocket launcher - meaning that it will empty its ECM-hardened missile racks onto enemies

A damaged and half-destroyed Constitution should fire enormous strings of missiles towards its opponents in 3.02 ...

Please tell me if your version is 3.01 or 3.02, if you are running the former I would really recommend upgrading to the latter ...



L

Lestradae wrote:

Could it be that you are running RS version 3.01?

'Tis possible that I was running 3.01 at the time, though I upgraded to 3.02 the moment it was announced. More on that in another post. I've certainly seen rather sluggish reactions from other fugitives since then, though. Sometimes they just seem to want to die, especially when there are police around.

Second reason, the Navy Constitution of version 3.02 has a rocket launcher - meaning that it will empty its ECM-hardened missile racks onto enemies

Yes, I've now seen that in action a couple of times. Quite an inspiring sight, seeing all those cyan blips stream out on the scanner. Thankfully, so far they have always been directed at somebody else!

A damaged and half-destroyed Constitution should fire enormous strings of missiles towards its opponents in 3.02 ...

Please tell me if your version is 3.01 or 3.02, if you are running the former I would really recommend upgrading to the latter ...

As I said, I can't be sure it was 3.02, but that's my impression. I should note that I came along in the middle of his battle with the cops, so he may have already exhausted his missile racks before I got there.

Hi caracal,

I've certainly seen rather sluggish reactions from other fugitives since then, though. Sometimes they just seem to want to die, especially when there are police around.

It`s pretty probable that the reason for that is in the core game now ... the standard combat AIs, that is.

Quite an inspiring sight, seeing all those cyan blips stream out on the scanner. Thankfully, so far they have always been directed at somebody else!

Yeah, inspiring to run away

Once, they were directed at me and I turned to look into the tunnel of incoming missiles. I didn`t look long.

he may have already exhausted his missile racks before I got there.

If he had his missile racks exhausted there would have been no police left, except if they had carriers of their own on the scene

I am thinking of attempting to find or even generate a battle between police/pirate Condors, Juggernauts and Constitutions and make pics of it - I imagine that a rocket thrower battle between two or even more of those giants would look pretty impressive.

It can happen in standard RS 3.02, but is not very probable - have to think about keeping general Oolite survivability in for the green Jamesons

Cheers

L

Lestradae wrote:

Quite an inspiring sight, seeing all those cyan blips stream out on the scanner. Thankfully, so far they have always been directed at somebody else!

Yeah, inspiring to run away

Veritas. I run away from them even when they're being fired at somebody else. Don't want to get their splatters on my forward viewscreen, doncha know.

I am thinking of attempting to find or even generate a battle between police/pirate Condors, Juggernauts and Constitutions and make pics of it - I imagine that a rocket thrower battle between two or even more of those giants would look pretty impressive.

It can happen in standard RS 3.02, but is not very probable - have to think about keeping general Oolite survivability in for the green Jamesons

Yes, I've been giving that very subject some thought. It's a delicate balance, making the game interesting for high-end players while keeping it survivable for n00bs. As a meso-intermediate newbie myself, I'm starting to get a sense of what it must be like for somebody who's been playing it for a couple years, and has seen (and usually killed) it all. And as my playing style has me starting a new commander with a stock Cobra MkIII every so often, I haven't forgotten what it's like to have a paper ass, no injectors, standard shields, and only a pulse laser and conventional missiles, in a universe where Tigers and Wolves and Kestrels and Condors also prowl. I have some half-baked ideas about how to retain balance at such varied levels, but they're not ready for hatching just yet.

Svengali wrote:

Maybe I'm stupid, but...

I’m not sure that running two copies of the debug console qualifies as stupid per se…

I’m not familiar with the VM system in Windows. I do know that under OS X virtual memory usage fluctuates wildly with the slightest change and isn’t really a reliable measure of anything.

I know for a fact that Oolite converts paletted textures to 32-bit ARGB (not RGBA as I wrote above). I wrote the texture management myself. The code that does the conversion (or rather, orders it) is OOPNGTextureLoader.m, lines 157–160 and 171–180. The texture class only supports two data formats: kOOTextureDataRGBA (GL_RGBA, GL_UNSIGNED_INT_8_8_8_8 little-endian/GL_UNSIGNED_INT_8_8_8_8_REV big-endian) and kOOTextureDataGrayscale (GL_LUMINANCE8 or GL_ALPHA8 [for text], GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE). These are supported natively on most graphics cards and Oolite stores them in that format in memory, for simplicity and efficiency.

CaptKev wrote:

Is it still worth converting to 8-bit to reduce the OXP file size or will this put an extra strain on Oolite by having to fill in the extra bit planes?

It will increase loading times (and reduce texture quality, of course). Again, if you intend to do that, also try reducing to 256 colours but saving as RGB and compare the resulting file sizes.

Ahruman wrote:

CaptKev wrote:

Is it still worth converting to 8-bit to reduce the OXP file size or will this put an extra strain on Oolite by having to fill in the extra bit planes?

It will increase loading times (and reduce texture quality, of course). Again, if you intend to do that, also try reducing to 256 colours but saving as RGB and compare the resulting file sizes.

Thanks Ahruman, I'll revert back to 24-bit textures for System Redux. They do look so much better up close when there 24-bit.

Of course our interpretation of the Ooniverse, is, even as a noobie, a relatively safe one - the start at Lave, and then do Diso<->Leesti or equivalent for a while until we're brave enough and equipped enough to survive at least our first encounter with something more meaty in some of the other systems. Of course this is a "false" representation of what the Ooniverse must be like for other Jameson's - perhaps they get their first ship in a cluster of Feudals and Anarchies!

How about a "Random Start Location" option so you don't start at Lave? You could make it so you don't even start in G1 but this would screw up the early in built missions. And the purists could well argue that starting at Lave and working your way out/through the rest of the Ooniverse is what keeps the principals of the game's "Eliteness" alive.

I haven't forgotten what it's like to have a paper ass, no injectors, standard shields, and only a pulse laser and conventional missiles, in a universe where Tigers and Wolves and Kestrels and Condors also prowl. I have some half-baked ideas about how to retain balance at such varied levels

Your ideas - by all means, let`s hear them!

My opinion is that: If any Jameson buys himself an Injector right after the Docking Comp (possible at Lave itself with RS 3.02 - buy a smaller ship + more equipment immediately and start out with a few thousand credits), and keeps using that scanner thingy and looking at the printed-out ships databank what is coming at him, and doesn`t travel to anarchies or feudal systems for the time being, keeping to corporate and democratic systems at the beginning, and RUNS if one of the big guys gets too interested ... then the universe where Tigers and Wolves and Kestrels and Condors also prowl is pretty survivable for the young Jameson.

Shit happens - but with RS 3.02, death can happen to the best of us ...

Perhaps (perhaps?! ) I`m an old style gamer, but I don`t hold the sliding scales easy gaming approach in high regard ... in my version of the Ooniverse (visible in RS) there are dangerous places you don`t go to before you have become dangerous yourself. That way, low-tech anarchy actually means something.

That is just my opinion, my 0.2 Cr - anyone else is entiteled to theirs too, and I will always listen to new ideas ...

Have fun everyone with your respective versions

L