Oolite Bulletins

I have the impression you're assuming an even dispersal of players around the Galaxy

it's no assumption, it's fact. scan these boards, you see people are in many of the different galaxies, because many are wrapped up in various OXPs that all take place in different ones.

What would happen is that players would congregate

explain how/why?

You're thinking full on MMORPG. I'm not considering that. I'm thinking only about the economy server

well, maybe i'm completely missing your point, but if all you're doing is simulating a market, then frankly i don't care. it's not important enough for me to be interested, the game's existing market is fine. re Thargoid behaviour, i have the same thoughts. what they do is quite acceptable to me and the various OXPs sound good enough to me so far (not tangling w/ the bug till i got my fighter tho!)

like i say, i would only play online if i was offered co-op missions i can't play by myself. would be fun to get some of us here escorting and others trying to kill our motherships etc.

Killer Wolf wrote:

Callas wrote:

I have the impression you're assuming an even dispersal of players around the Galaxy

it's no assumption, it's fact. scan these boards, you see people are in many of the different galaxies, because many are wrapped up in various OXPs that all take place in different ones.

That's a failure-of-vision criticism.

You're taking the future situation, adding one aspect of the current situation, and then saying "the future situation has a problem".

If the game is MMORPG, there will be a new factor involved in player's decisions about which galaxy to be in; they will tend to want to be around other players. This will lead to people tending to stay in galaxy one, because it is where everyone begins and so is at the very start the galaxy with the most players in.

OXP missions outside Galaxy one will lure people away, but it will have to work against the wish to stay around other players.

Killer Wolf wrote:

Callas wrote:

You're thinking full on MMORPG. I'm not considering that. I'm thinking only about the economy server

well, maybe i'm completely missing your point, but if all you're doing is simulating a market, then frankly i don't care. it's not important enough for me to be interested, the game's existing market is fine. re Thargoid behaviour, i have the same thoughts. what they do is quite acceptable to me and the various OXPs sound good enough to me so far (not tangling w/ the bug till i got my fighter tho!)

That's fine.

Be aware of what the economy server would bring, though, because at the moment I think you don't percieve the affect it will have.

For example, there would now actually be a reason to travel more than one hyperspace hop when trading, and there would be reasons to trade in the full range of commodities, rather than just always computers and furs.

Gareth3377 wrote:

So what would be the point of an Oolite multiplayer. There's two options I could see:

1. A persistant universe (or ooniverse) with set 'events' (missions, system changes, galactic phenomena etc.)

2. A deathmatch type set up (not necessarily a 'deathmatch' but you get my gist) which, IMO, defeats the object of Elite in the first place.

Other than those two scenarios I can't see the point of a MMORPG.

I think you're described the main rationale for MMORPGs - persistant universe, events, combat, and then said "apart from this, I can't see the point of a MMORPG".

Well, quite!

Gareth3377 wrote:

The development of the game doesn't need to be 'online'. Look at the Your Ad Here oxp. An incredibly simple (I don't mean programming though ho ho - I couldn't do that) idea, but one that add such depth to the game. A simple update to that OXP with a new advert (e.g. advertising a new ship) and it has become the universe, in a way, has become dynamic.

This is true.

Some players will not be interested in the possibilites presented by on-line, stateful functionality. Some will. Making the servers "super-OXPs", where players can pick and choose, works exactly as normal OXPs do, to permit individual choice and customization, something I *deeply* approve of.

It should not be one choice for all; it should be all choice for one.

"That's a failure-of-vision criticism. "
boy, you're full of yourself aren't you? i have no vision? you think? maybe your idea just wasn't fully discussed clearly? you go on about creating a market upgrade thing, now you say that if we want to join it'll be as a brand new pilot in the standard universe etc etc, implying more of a resetting of a game than just a market server. fair enough, but why would i want to? i've just spent two months making a million, i don't want to go back to 100C and a naff ship, thanks.
you want us to discuss something, tell us the whole idea, don't go accusing me of having a lack of vision because i pick a hole in your plan and you then change your tack to counter my point.

"This will lead to people tending to stay in galaxy one etc"
this leads onto a whole discussion of what's the point of OOlite online then, if you're telling us the other 7 galaxies are superfluous. and people might NOT want to interact w/ other if, as i mentioned elsewhere, those others play a lot and spec their ships up wildly and i'm left w/ pulse lasers and a missile.

Another consequence of the economy server came to mind last night; there would now be reasons to make multiple hops when trading.

Right now, we all trade RI to PA and it's computers one way and furs the other.

One hop, same commodity each time, same type of planet each time.

I think the game would benefit and be more enjoyable from a rich economic simulation, where there were real reasons and benefits to trade in all the commodities and to have real reasons - real financial benefit - to actually travel a number of hops when trading.

There was a comment earlier in this thread about how player trading should not affect the economy, because the effect of players is tiny compared to the magnitude of the trading that is "actually" occurring.

I think this might actually be a mistake.

It seems to me, in a reasonable, realistic galactic economy simulation, that player behaviour will be *representative* of the "actual" behaviour of all all other virtual traders.

It therefore is extremely useful - probably vital - to utilize this property, the representativeness of player behaviour - in the economic simulation.

What you do in effect is consider each player visit to be worth say a thousand times that much that is traded, and adjust commodity prices accordingly.

So in a system which has a need for minerals, where demand is high, prices are pushed up; as supply comes in, demand is reduced, prices fall appropriately.

You measure the amount of incoming trade by player behaviour, rather than trying to guess how much would occur by the behaviour of NPCs, where you'd have to take into account so many factors - distance from sources of supply, piracy, to what extent other trade opportunities are occupying trading capitals, etc, etc.

You get a very accurate simulation very simply and cheaply by extrapolating from player behaviour.

Callas wrote:

You get a very accurate simulation very simply and cheaply by extrapolating from player behaviour.

Only if you have a sufficiently large number of players (or rather, a sufficient player:market ratio).

Ahruman wrote:

Callas wrote:

You get a very accurate simulation very simply and cheaply by extrapolating from player behaviour.

Only if you have a sufficiently large number of players (or rather, a sufficient player:market ratio).

This is true.

The more players you have, the more accurate the simulation.

Diminishing returns of accuracy as player numbers increase.

Wonder how many you'd need to be reasonably accurate?

In fact, this is a strong reason in favour of a server based economy. It's the only way you can use players behaviour as the simulation base. Otherwise, you have to try to numerically simulate the economy. That is a fundamentally hard problem. The Treasury try to do it and they don't do a particularly good job :-)

I agree that player trading should effect local economies. If trading furs to RIs from PA is attractive to the player, I think it's logical to assume it's attractive to NPCs as well. You would then have to simulate the consuming of these goods by the destination planet. Hey, let's face it, Ensorius can only handle so many Trumble pelts.

Where this all fits in with MMORPG? I dunno.

reills wrote:

I agree that player trading should effect local economies. If trading furs to RIs from PA is attractive to the player, I think it's logical to assume it's attractive to NPCs as well. You would then have to simulate the consuming of these goods by the destination planet. Hey, let's face it, Ensorius can only handle so many Trumble pelts.

Exactly.

reills wrote:

Where this all fits in with MMORPG? I dunno. :)

Realism.

What's lovely about this combination of ideas, stateful economy, player trading and economy simulation from player behaviour, is that you then have situations where a planet has a need for a particular commodity, and that need will gradually be filled, and so you have a real, genuine reason to move quickly while trading (since prices are slowly going to be falling as other players do the same, so you want to get in ASAP), to travel multiple jumps to trade (since this planet might be offering 50 for minerals whereas others, nearer, are offering the normal 12 or so) and also to trade in ALL commodities (since the exceptional prices for here minerals make them a better deal than trading what you'd normally trade (computers/furs)).

In other words, we move from a cardboard cutout economy to an economy which is a genuine, useful, living part of the game.

I've been thinking about buying and selling.

Currently, there are a number of absolutely fundamental anomalies.

Two biggies are;

Firstly, traders buy and sell at the same price. This makes no sense; in a real market, there are actually a range of buyers and sellers, each wanting different quantities and offering different prices.

Secondly, despite there being a global economy and the range of people who want to sell their goods, players are limited to a few dozen tons of each commodity.

What I'm thinking is that for each commodity, there should be a range of buyers and sellers (NPCs), each wanting to buy or sell a different amount, and offering different prices. The highest buy offer represents the best deal in the market at any given time, but of course he may only want a limited quantity.

Players themselves can issue buy and sell orders in the market which of course may well not execute immediately. (One convenient command would be: sell at best current prices, which would sell to the highest bidders in order until no more player cargo is available).

This has the amazing upshot that you can transport goods to a planet, place a sell order at a price higher than the current best offer, *AND THEN LEAVE TO CONTINUE WITH MORE TRADING*.

Your sell offer will complete when there is a buyer willing to pay your price.

Likewise, players can place buy orders at a price lower than the best offer and then come back to collect their purchases at a later time, to be transported elsewhere.

So when you come to a planet and examine the market, the first list you see, of all commodities, shows the best buy and sell prices, so you get a feel for where the market is at. You then examine commodities individually to see the current list of buy and sell offers. (This is how the stock market functions).

Crucially, market data is available galactically. You don't need to be in a system to know its prices. You access each planet's data through the galactic or local maps. This is vital so that players can behave normally when trading; for example, how could you know to make a multi-hop trade, that it would be worth it, if you didn't know the current destination prices? Another reason is that if you don't know a destination planet's prices, how would you know where to go to, to trade? the notions of economy type and Government give a guide, but what about particular transient needs? you couldn't know unless you stumbled across on by mistake.

what are you trying to achieve here? Oolite is a space combat game where the markets exist simply to allow you to get money to buy goodies. that ALL. you seem to want to code a full-on simulation of the stock market. Sorry, but who cares? the whole point of Elite's not-knowing-prices was that it added that little element of chance to your trades, that little risk that you might not get as much as you wanted, or make a loss. it's all the dynamics needed ina game of this scope. the whole point of Elite was to *make Elite*. it wasn't to make a million, or ten million, or anything fiscal. otherwise, it would've been called "Space tycoon" or summat. you got a fluctuating economy that adds randomness to the goal of kitting out a ship and keeping you alive to reach the Elite rating. i therefore assume Oolite has exactly the same goals and objectives, since Giles didn't call it "Space TycOon" or whatever.

his has the amazing upshot that you can transport goods to a planet, place a sell order at a price higher than the current best offer, *AND THEN LEAVE TO CONTINUE WITH MORE TRADING*.

so, when you fly off, what are you buying your current cargo w/? the goods you brought there are still hanging about until your sell price hits, so until you've got excess money to cover more cargo, what do you do?

Your sell offer will complete when there is a buyer willing to pay your price.

and if an NPC arrives selling for less? your goods are left waiting there until you come back and change your sell price?

Crucially, market data is available galactically. You don't need to be in a system to know its prices. You access each planet's data through the galactic or local maps. This is vital so that players can behave normally when trading; for example, how could you know to make a multi-hop trade, that it would be worth it, if you didn't know the current destination prices?

haven't you realised this is *utterly pointless*?? firstly, i NEVER make multi hops, and i doubt many others do either - you pick suitable planets close to each other and shuttle between them. secondly - don't you realise that days or weeks can pass when you jump? are you trying to say the market wouldn't have changed during that time?

What happened to minimal impact on the client? :-)

Anyway, back to that informal design policy again. A key feature is: major gameplay deviations from Elite are to be avoided. While a revised market would certainly make the game more realistic, it rather pushes the bounds in this regard. There’s a place in the world for a space-trading game with more a advanced trading aspect, but Oolite probably isn’t it (at least, mainline Oolite).

Killer Wolf wrote:

what are you trying to achieve here? Oolite is a space combat game where the markets exist simply to allow you to get money to buy goodies. that ALL. you seem to want to code a full-on simulation of the stock market. Sorry, but who cares?

As with OXPs, anyone who is interested in that particular modification.

Killer Wolf wrote:

the whole point of Elite's not-knowing-prices was that it added that little element of chance to your trades, that little risk that you might not get as much as you wanted, or make a loss.

How do you know this is so? have you spoken to the designers, or read in an interview with them, that this was their design goal and they implemented economics as they did for that reason?

I doubt very much that you have.

I think economics were simple in the original due to the limitations of the host hardware.

Killer Wolf wrote:

Callas wrote:

his has the amazing upshot that you can transport goods to a planet, place a sell order at a price higher than the current best offer, *AND THEN LEAVE TO CONTINUE WITH MORE TRADING*.

so, when you fly off, what are you buying your current cargo w/? the goods you brought there are still hanging about until your sell price hits, so until you've got excess money to cover more cargo, what do you do?

Most players have enough cash to put a sell order out, buy more goods and then continue trading. If a player did not have that much cash, he would be forced to accept the highest offer, take the best price he could, and then continue trading.

Killer Wolf wrote:

Your sell offer will complete when there is a buyer willing to pay your price.

and if an NPC arrives selling for less? your goods are left waiting there until you come back and change your sell price?

Yes.

Killer Wolf wrote:

Callas wrote:

Crucially, market data is available galactically. You don't need to be in a system to know its prices. You access each planet's data through the galactic or local maps. This is vital so that players can behave normally when trading; for example, how could you know to make a multi-hop trade, that it would be worth it, if you didn't know the current destination prices?

haven't you realised this is *utterly pointless*?? firstly, i NEVER make multi hops, and i doubt many others do either - you pick suitable planets close to each other and shuttle between them.

Failure of vision criticism. You're taking one aspect of the future situation, putting it into the current situation, and saying "there's a problem".

The reason you do not do multiple hops now is because the economy is arranged such that it makes no sense to do so.

The arrangement I'm suggesting will provide reasons to perform multiple hops.

Killer Wolf wrote:

secondly - don't you realise that days or weeks can pass when you jump? are you trying to say the market wouldn't have changed during that time?

That's a good point, and one I'd missed. I'm used to original Elite where there is no apparent passing of subjective time when you hop.

Hops seem to be fairly quick, though - some hours or a day - which would work fine, not least since everyone faces that same delay.

Ahruman wrote:

What happened to minimal impact on the client? :-)

*cough* Is that the time? :-)

That's a serious point, though. The sort of thing I'm talking about here, the new GUIs, etc, are no longer trivial client side changes.

Ahruman wrote:

Anyway, back to that informal design policy again. A key feature is: major gameplay deviations from Elite are to be avoided. While a revised market would certainly make the game more realistic, it rather pushes the bounds in this regard. There’s a place in the world for a space-trading game with more a advanced trading aspect, but Oolite probably isn’t it (at least, mainline Oolite).

Don't plenty of the OXPs violate this design policy? I mean, X-Wing fighters from Star Wars flying around?

Remember that the economy server is optional. If a player does not want to use it, they get the normal, current behaviour.

What's wrong with optional extensions to the game?

What are you trying to achieve here? Oolite is a space combat game where the markets exist simply to allow you to get money to buy goodies. that ALL. you seem to want to code a full-on simulation of the stock market. Sorry, but who cares? the whole point of Elite's not-knowing-prices was that it added that little element of chance to your trades, that little risk that you might not get as much as you wanted, or make a loss. it's all the dynamics needed ina game of this scope. the whole point of Elite was to *make Elite*. it wasn't to make a million, or ten million, or anything fiscal. otherwise, it would've been called "Space tycoon" or summat. you got a fluctuating economy that adds randomness to the goal of kitting out a ship and keeping you alive to reach the Elite rating. i therefore assume Oolite has exactly the same goals and objectives, since Giles didn't call it "Space TycOon" or whatever.

I have to agree with the above. I grew to like the game as it is. A simple game that's easy to mod up a bit.
I think it's great that some folks have been checking in with all kinds of ideas and add-ons, however, the overall scope of the game should stay as it is.
Why make a cake out of pudding when you can just make a cake?