Secondary Market Definitions Defined

[Cholmondely]

I don't have scope to properly test this at the moment, but maybe it will work first try? Worth a shot, anyway.

Downloaded. Will try her out and let you know...

Thank you!

[Stormrider]

they all need markets that don't cause "unique profit opportunities" where 2 nearby stations are 20+ credits apart in prices for the same trade goods.

That may what you would want but others may like those unique profit opportunities so it is not obvious to me that those markets are broken. I would even suggest that unique opportunities are the only reason to even dock at an extra station.

Now you might be more interested in other variation such as equipment, shipyards or missions and that's great, but it seems a little unreasonable to expect that everyone that creates a station or a market for one would have the same vision as you. It is up to you to change what you don't like about them.

[Stormrider]

I noticed a post on Roolite saying that it didn't work.

Well, that's news to me. Now there are problems, the dock looks like hell, but it does work and is unlikely to be fixed until I create a new model. The script that controls Witchfire Whiskey does work as intended, I just downloaded the official version linked to the expansion manager and tested it to make sure.

I don't know why our friends over at Roolite claim it doesn't work, perhaps they have other expansions installed that conflict with the script or maybe they just didn't travel far enough away from the systems it originates from. You probably won't see a difference until you are at least 20 or more LY away.

It is, as you said, just a proof of concept and I never intended it to be a great profit generating mechanism. If you've got room for a few extra containers it might be worth it to carry them half a chart or so away, but unless you have tweaked the markets to have lower numbers of commodities, as I have, you will likely make more profit trading basic commodities.

not into whisky!

Well you don't have to drink it, that will certainly cut into your profit.

[Redspear]

they all need markets that don't cause "unique profit opportunities" where 2 nearby stations are 20+ credits apart in prices for the same trade goods.

That may what you would want but others may like those unique profit opportunities so it is not obvious to me that those markets are broken. I would even suggest that unique opportunities are the only reason to even dock at an extra station.

Genuine question to everyone:

• When folks talk about trade or markets being 'broken', what do they actually mean?
  e.g.
  • Nonsensical
  • Predictable
  • Static
  • Dull
  • Poor risk/reward ratio (too easy/hard)
  • Questionable distribution

Or, if you prefer:

• What do other game economies have that oolite doesn't that would actually benefit gameplay?
  • You tell me...

I know this is a secondary markets thread but I do think it's relevant.

There seems to be a general consensus that they're not realistic but what makes them 'broken' from a gameplay perspective rather than from a simulation perspective?

[Cholmondely]

they all need markets that don't cause "unique profit opportunities" where 2 nearby stations are 20+ credits apart in prices for the same trade goods.

That may what you would want but others may like those unique profit opportunities so it is not obvious to me that those markets are broken. I would even suggest that unique opportunities are the only reason to even dock at an extra station.

Genuine question to everyone:

• When folks talk about trade or markets being 'broken', what do they actually mean?
  e.g.
  • Nonsensical
  • Predictable
  • Static
  • Dull
  • Poor risk/reward ratio (too easy/hard)
  • Questionable distribution

Or, if you prefer:

• What do other game economies have that oolite doesn't that would actually benefit gameplay?
  • You tell me...

I know this is a secondary markets thread but I do think it's relevant.

There seems to be a general consensus that they're not realistic but what makes them 'broken' from a gameplay perspective rather than from a simulation perspective?

I natter so much, that I can't recall all the instances where I've labelled something as "broken". But:

In regards to Real Life Economics it is because it does not work as advertised. The market prices do indeed fluctuate, but if you watch long enough, every single jolly price ends up as zero!

In regards to SWEconomy, it is because the so called third pole does not work as advertised. The prices on the mining worlds (eg Laenin) with too small a radius and too low a TL to support hydroponics are ridiculously low and no profit can be made selling food/wine/liquors to them.

As regards earlier comments regarding New Cargoes, I was merely parroting what I read - since I never smuggle, the brokenness was never apparent to me.



While I've not yet mentioned it, there are other broken markets in my game - to whit - if there are several stations selling at the same price, often they will act as one, so buying all 16 computers at eg a Nephthys clears out the computers at the local Superhub and possibly also the main station! I don't know if anybody else has encountered this one.

[Redspear]

So, if I'm reading you correctly then it's that several oxps of an economic bent don't work as described when interacting with the core game?

I'd even extend my question further to ask what's broken about the default economies within the game?

I suppose that all ecomony oxps are desirous of changing the core economy in some way (certainly mine was). It's something that's been spoken about elsewhere but usually from a realistic point of view rather than considerations of gameplay (the two can overlap of course). I'm wondering in part if the solutions are so numerous because the problem is nebulous. Is it just wrong in lots of different ways or is there a lack of understanding of what the problems might actualy be?

If we can identify the problems then that would be a good start I'd have thought. If we can't then...

[Cholmondely]

I'd even extend my question further to ask what's broken about the default economies within the game?

Off the top of my head, I can see three overlapping issues.


1) Lore. Try and get back to the almost poetic description of trade in the original Elite manual:

In trading with a planet, consider its economic profile:
AGRICULTURAL WORLDS need specialist food and raw materials, but mostly basic machinery and spare parts. If they are rich, they need luxuries and high tech industrial machines. They produce food in quantity, raw materials and specialized "organic" items, like some textiles.
INDUSTRIAL WORLDS need agricultural produce; raw materials (for refining); resource exploitation machinery; (if rich) high tech goods. They produce basic items of need for civilized worlds: beds, seals and gaskets power storage units, basic weapons, mass-produced fertilizer, mass-produced medicines, etc.

Think about a planet's needs.
Think what might make the society function.
Don't trade expensive trivia to a hungry world.

If the profit isn't worth it, trade it somewhere else.

I'm unsure as to what extent this has been successfully incorporated into any of the OXPs out there. Your Demand Driven Economy probably goes the furthest, but honestly, some of the "demands" seem bizarre to me! (Cim's New Cargoes does a good job for the description in Holdstock's Dark Wheel - but not for the game manual text quoted above.)



2) Realism. Make the trading more realistic - more like what we see in the real world (Phasted's Real Life Economics with dynamic markets, cim's Risk Based Economy & Phkb's Risky Business which include the effects of dangerous piracy on the prices, cim's SOTL AltMap with its list of 40-odd commodities).



3) Fun. Make the trading more interesting - get away from the rather banal "rich industrial computers" <> "poor agricultural furs" rut (eg - your Demand Driven Economy, SWEconomy, Vincentz's New Deal, cim's New Cargoes).

But of course, no OXPs will want to make the trading less fun!

If we can identify the problems then that would be a good start I'd have thought. If we can't then...

If you wish to analyze this, you might wish to consult the essay on Economics where there is an attempted analysis of the assorted analyses of the trade system. The most sophisticated are cim's and Stranger's.

[Redspear]

Your Demand Driven Economy probably goes the furthest, but honestly, some of the "demands" seem bizarre to me!

Arguably, the relevant 'mistake' I made was to include the reasoning in the game itself rather than in the documentation.

Having something that added to (without bloating) the f7 descriptor text was something I'd considered for ages and so why not make that part relevant to the game experience.

With only 8 economy types howevever, such text was going to get very old, very fast. So I made multiple versions for each economy type: some spelling out demand reasoning, some only hinting at the demand. I think Nite Owl commented that it would be helpful if the demands were all spelled out on those pages and my concern at the time was that it might be too helpful.

I generally prefer my in game reasoning to be 'light touch', not because I don't think it's important but rather because I prefer to leave some room for the player to reason how they wish. But hey, now that we've got the new spoiler feature

Spoiler

it works!

I could at least spell it all out for those who just wanted a sample rationale.

BTW, the wiki could really use such a feature IMHO. Missions, ship stats even especially ( ) my New Lasers locations!

Thanks for your time. I've skimmed the economics page before but I'll give it a proper read soon.