Oolite Bulletins

Gimi wrote:

So I think we should focus more on the fact that an OXP changes the game mechanics, and not so much on how/easier/harder.

Yes. For some oxps this feels quite obvious (or is it?). For example Market Inquirer let's you browse the markets of some selected markets. I don't think it needs any more explanation on impact on game balance.

Maybe we should only tag the big game changers only. Like GalNavy, Vortex, ToughGuys, ...

DaddyHoggy wrote:

Like this? (They seem to scale down quite well too)

Muchas gracias DH.


1 shows that a OXP rebalances either Oolite mechanisms or other OXPs content.
2-7 shows that it pushes Player, NPCs or both (e.g. by raising stats or adding shields, etc).
8-10 are for helpers which are adding 'neutral' stuff (e.g. music, path finding, etc.)

2+3, 4+5, 6+7 are just alternative icons. Dunno which version to use...

Svengali wrote:

Dunno which version to use...

I prefer the dark/light figures on the see-saw, rather than the 'N' and 'P' on the see-saw.

spara wrote:

GalNavy gives me the feeling of martial law. Navy seems to be everywhere and in control. Maybe it's intended to be like that. Behemoths by themselves are quite rare and don't tilt the balance much. I would dare to say that liners and their habit of collecting pirates behind them is more of a balance breaker.

Yes, it was Matts intention to get a strong Navy presence. The OXP does what the authors intended, that's absolutely ok and it's really fun to do some missions. Sure, drawback is that it has an impact on other OXPs e.g. with really strong ships showing up in lots of systems. But I doubt that we can find a way to quantify the impact.

Cody wrote:

Svengali wrote:

Dunno which version to use...

I prefer the dark/light figures on the see-saw, rather than the 'N' and 'P' on the see-saw.

I also think that using figures is better than using N/P, but instead of dark human figure for NCP, how about using Oolite logo? Or maybe a sketch of a computer?

Svengali wrote:

Yes, it was Matts intention to get a strong Navy presence. The OXP does what the authors intended, that's absolutely ok and it's really fun to do some missions

Thanks for clearing that up. I assumed that it was so.

spara wrote:

I also think that using figures is better than using N/P, but instead of dark human figure for NCP, how about using Oolite logo? Or maybe a sketch of a computer?

??

Cool icons!
I think 2. and 3. is better if not darkening the lower figures.
Why need three different icon to mark neutral oxps? I think one with a neutral seesaw is enough (same as the 4. but without the up arrow).

Norby wrote:

Why need three different icon to mark neutral oxps? I think one with a neutral seesaw is enough (same as the 4. but without the up arrow).

The idea is that they don't mark neutral OXPs. They represent 'helpers' which have no (or negligible - *grins*, discussion alert) impact on balance like Alerting Crosshairs, Camera Drones or Big Ships. It's quite possible to add 'helpers' in OXPs for Players, NPCs or both (the majority will be for Players though).

Norby wrote:

I think 2. and 3. is better if not darkening the lower figures.

Yep, needs contrast. We could use one without arrow if it's really necessary to mark non-rebalancing OXPs (replacing the percentage icon) and add another one with arrow down.

Svengali wrote:

It's quite possible to add 'helpers' in OXPs for Players, NPCs or both

Thank you, then the darkened figures should be removed to make this cleaner.
Nice trendy icons.

I keep instinctively reading the scale icons as "higher is better" and then thinking "Oh, scales. Lower is better". Then does the up arrow on the balanced scales mean "increases difficulty for NPCs and player", "increases balance between NPCs and player" or "increases power of NPCs and player"?

Another thought on balance: what counts as "balanced" can change from version to version of Oolite. That I think took a lot of OXPers somewhat by surprise in 1.77, because the majority of changes between 1.65 and 1.76 were not to the gameplay but to the game engine and framework. 1.79 makes even more changes to the core gameplay. For example, the in-game effect of the populator/AI changes should be neutral in terms of difficulty, but almost all Ship OXPs will have their balance shifted because of the change in the way Oolite uses roles ... though the change will make it easier to write balanced ship OXPs in future, too. This will, I expect, also be true of versions after 1.79.

spara wrote:

I would say that every extra market can be classified as cheaty as they can all be seen beneficial to the player.

It's difficult, but I don't think it's entirely impossible. Think of it this way: the player can make an amount of profit in an amount of time by trading between main stations. If the profit/time isn't significantly different, the prices can be "better".

So, I think it can be balanced if some or all of:
- the prices are not reliably different in a particular from the main station prices, and the two stations are significantly separated. It may then take the player several more minutes to go between the two and compare the prices ... in which time they could have made a normal inter-system trading run for a higher profit than the few credits of difference.
- the secondary station has a very limited amount available to buy and/or a very limited capacity to sell to
- the secondary station is risky to reach, which might cost time in dying and reloading, or cash in repair bills.
- the secondary station is not straightforward to find (e.g. some rock hermits)
- the secondary station has a really small docking bay, so you have to buy an Adder first.
Some of those weren't possible until 1.77, of course.

cim wrote:

Then does the up arrow on the balanced scales mean "increases difficulty for NPCs and player", "increases balance between NPCs and player" or "increases power of NPCs and player"?

I'd say "increases difficulty for NPCs and player" and "increases power of NPCs and player".

cim wrote:

I keep instinctively reading the scale icons as "higher is better" and then thinking "Oh, scales. Lower is better".

This is true ... it's not obvious whether the icon with a raised human means "this OXP lifts the player" or "this OXP gives more weight to NPCs". The whole idea of scales/seesaw to refer to "balance" is a good one, but at the moment the icons probably need some sort of text explanation. Maybe it would be better to lose the scales/seesaw, and just to have a human figure or a computer icon with a + or a - (or an up arrow or a down arrow) next to it?

Even with the icons, though, I still think it's worth encouraging all OXP wiki pages to carry a short "Effects on Game Balance" section - even if all it says is "Effects on Game Balance: none".

Cool new avatar, Svengali!

Ha, very good Dizzie

Smivs wrote:

Ha, very good Dizzie

That wasn't me.. it was Svengali wot dun it..

I just included it in my post because I've noticed most of you lot hardly ever spot Svengali's avatar changes..