RFC: Fancy classics

[Disembodied]

I'm going to make life difficult by disagreeing with DH, there (although not about the X-Sidewinder: looks good! But maybe it could lose the little forward-pointing peak above the cabin?). I think the texture looks good on the Coriolis: it helps make it look properly big. The Dodo is not so successful, but I think that's down to the model, not the texture. It's just a big plain dodecahedron. Give it a disk around the docking port, a few windows, maybe some flat, ungreebled areas outlining each pentagonal face, it would make it look more like a structure and less like a bog-standard geometric solid.

[DaddyHoggy]

I'm going to make life difficult by disagreeing with DH, there (although not about the X-Sidewinder: looks good! But maybe it could lose the little forward-pointing peak above the cabin?). I think the texture looks good on the Coriolis: it helps make it look properly big. The Dodo is not so successful, but I think that's down to the model, not the texture. It's just a big plain dodecahedron. Give it a disk around the docking port, a few windows, maybe some flat, ungreebled areas outlining each pentagonal face, it would make it look more like a structure and less like a bog-standard geometric solid.

That's why they're opinions - so they can be disagreed with. I liked the dodo because the textures in the images I saw seemed to go nicely round each of the facets giving some continuity and some kind of belief that the conduit, etc was there for a reason - on the Cori' its there and then suddenly there's this huge blank disk cut out of it - makes it look silly in my mind...

[Disembodied]

Hum ... I see your point, but I think the stations need a mix of small structures (the background texture) and big ones (e.g. the disk around the docking port). It stops the whole thing from looking too samey, and helps to provide the sense of scale for the greebles as much as for the station itself. It's like something like an oil rig, say: there's lots of bitty details all over the place, pipes, girders, small boxy structures and so on, then there's a whacking big helipad with a great big H on it. The pipes, etc. are all still there, they just run underneath or around. But if the rig was just a spaghetti tangle of pipes and ducts it would just look like an amorphous mass which could be either very large or really quite small.

[DaddyHoggy]

Hum ... I see your point, but I think the stations need a mix of small structures (the background texture) and big ones (e.g. the disk around the docking port). It stops the whole thing from looking too samey, and helps to provide the sense of scale for the greebles as much as for the station itself. It's like something like an oil rig, say: there's lots of bitty details all over the place, pipes, girders, small boxy structures and so on, then there's a whacking big helipad with a great big H on it. The pipes, etc. are all still there, they just run underneath or around. But if the rig was just a spaghetti tangle of pipes and ducts it would just look like an amorphous mass which could be either very large or really quite small.

Clever use of lights I think is the answer - viewports - or Escape hatches - something to put it all in perspective and give it some sense of scale - although I cannot diasgree with you comments regarding the fine detail vs Helipad...

[Disembodied]

Ooh, clever lighting effects ... Ramon's remodelled Anaconda has a really nice effect using uplighters from the rear corners. Something like that would be good! I don't know whether that would require remodelling or if it could work with a basic reskinning, but some floodlights illuminating the area around the docking bay, or even just shining across one face of the station ... that could be interesting!

[another_commander]

Ooh, clever lighting effects ... Ramon's remodelled Anaconda has a really nice effect using uplighters from the rear corners. Something like that would be good! I don't know whether that would require remodelling or if it could work with a basic reskinning, but some floodlights illuminating the area around the docking bay, or even just shining across one face of the station ... that could be interesting!

The best part is that the lighting effect on ramon's Anaconda is not created by a texture, it is created by shaders, i.e. it originates from a light source (actually not 100% sure about that, but color is definitely shader-controlled). You can actually see this light going red the moment you fire on the Anaconda and it turns hostile against you. You can take it really far with stations if you want, as you can actually change the light color to your preferences or have many lights like this for added effect.

Shaders, man, the possibilities are endless

[Simon B]

You can take it really far with stations if you want, as you can actually change the light color to your preferences or have many lights like this for added effect.

Shaders, man, the possibilities are endless ;-)

And so on ... If I totally explored the possibilities for stations, I'd never be finished.

The discussion suggests to me that the station textures are on-track, needing only tweeks to make an acceptable default. The fancy involved stuff is for OXP devs. I should be able to add lights though.

Note that the coriolis uses three skins. I'm using the same diffuse map for each of them, since it's quite large. This means I can texture out the model with three pngs. The circle appears an all faces because it appears on the front. So, any details added to the circle (lights, windows etc) will be duplicated everywhere. If I make each map different, I risk needing nine pngs - and three of them will be mega size.

Still .. the circles are a little plain - I could just do without them entirely. I added them because the previous experiments normal-mapping broke at the docking slit. I figured the rails, pipes etc could come out of or feed the circle. Adding lights or some sort of stepping structure would work too. Always remembering that it will appear on all sides.

The fine detailed textures give an impression of size - particularly for regular shapes. Larger shapes make the model look smaller. So you'll see that those stations with lots of big detail (the PAGroove one I showed you for eg) look quite tiny.

OTOH: dark colors lend a sense of massivity - so the griff coriolis manages a lot of presence. It also has a great balance of large and small details. If you cruise the other station threads, you'll see attempts to skin griffs station with light or colorful textures - which don't really work. The station shrinks and loses impact.

The alien-hull skin works something of a miracle in this way. It's a light texture with depth and impact. I don't think I'd have tried that approach exactly - to to that level of detail. Skinners and modellers should visit that site, there are lots of other textures - all gratis.

The skin works best if it is the only texture applied - and very best on round shapes. So the isoc look great! If I'd lined them up, the isoc would look bigger and further away than the others.

Recognizable details are needed and I plan to use light like I did on the coriolis triangles.

Meantime - I've stuffed everything I've got onto my website.
That's these stations, all the new ships, the works. I've finished shaders and normal-maps (tweaking needed) for all the ships in there. I've cleaned up the code.

The only models left are:
Alloy/fragment
missile
escape pod.

Remember - it's not supposed to be mind-blowing, but no reason it cannot become so. Feel free to modify.

There are 45 ships between two OXPs. That should get you started.

[Simon B]

some floodlights illuminating the area around the docking bay, or even just shining across one face of the station ... that could be interesting!

Ooh, errr... afaik, shaders do not currently support self reflections - where light bounces off the model. Otherwise I could just script in a light source, color, and direction - let the computer do the math.

Instead, these effects are "burned in" - using glow maps. I make a bright light for the actual lamp, then paint in the glows where I hope they'd occur.
(Griff will bear me out here ... er?)

For really intense textures, this is hard work: hand painting each bump.

There is a similar problem with self shadows - bits of the ship don't cast shadows on other bits - so I have to be very careful with the specular.

If you look at that anaconda's texture folder, no doubt you'll see the sort of thing I'm talking about.

[Simon B]

@SimonB, sorry if you've taken offense but it was only meant to be constructive criticism. :oops:

Not at all - and taken as such.

I was responding to the critique, 'tis all. Note: I am used to a robust critical environment. I was hoping you'd respond in defense of the critique - maybe I got the wrong end of the stick? Or maybe you didn't realize the depth of the texture I'd used?

The debate will be useful for defining the constraints I'm trying to work under. Maybe even widen them. Don't be put off. As i was, I did go check my assumptions - which meant finding a close shot of the applied texture at an oblique angle - trickier to get than I thought.

[Griff]

Instead, these effects are "burned in" - using glow maps. I make a bright light for the actual lamp, then paint in the glows where I hope they'd occur.
(Griff will bear me out here ... er?)

Yeah, i've been faking light sources using glow maps, it is a bit of a pain painting in all the bounce light, but it's worth doing as it makes it look so much better. Does wings3d have light sources and a rendering engine? if so, it might be possible to use it to bake illumination effects into the texture maps automatically with accurate shadowing. Blender would probably do this if wings3d doesn't

[Simon B]

Considering you've quite extensively remodelled all the ships, why the reticence remodelling the stations? Not saying you should, just curious.

I'm actually working under quite heavy constraints.
The working hypothesis is that the classic models somehow represent an attempt to recreate the shapes of actual starships with primitive tools. The neolite designs are supposed to be a closer match to the "actuality".

So - someone who did not know about Elite, asked to rework the neolite designs for a legacy system (limit to 6-8 faces say) would, plausibly, produce the classic models (or something close).

The biggest departure is the fer de lance ... which still turns into a diamond shape. The sidewinder and gecko keep the points - look back through the thread to see where I've drawn the original shape over the new model. The asp may produce something more rectangular - but it'll still be a wedge.

Applying this philosophy to station models is tricky.

Accepting that the treatment that resulted in the companion oxp is not going to work for stations - the scope is huge. The trouble is not so much being creative, but being restrained.

So I need appropriate constraints on the design.

If I accept that really fancy stations can go in OXPs, and there are many willing to take up this task, what I need is something to work as a useful default.

It turns out that I can retexture the existing stations to emulate a modest redesign in the core structure, as well as add detailed textures to parts. Doing this in the model would be annoying.

If I get something that i almost mind-blowing - then others will be inspired to remix it for their own oxps. With the alien-hull effect, this seems to be working.

[Simon B]

Yeah, i've been faking light sources using glow maps, it is a bit of a pain painting in all the bounce light, but it's worth doing as it makes it look so much better.

I'd rather cheat ;)

Does wings3d have light sources and a rendering engine? if so, it might be possible to use it to bake illumination effects into the texture maps automatically with accurate shadowing. Blender would probably do this if wings3d doesn't

Wings3D does have light sources and a rendering engine - but the engine doesn't know about normal-maps.

Blender does do this - quite right. I have a hate-hate relationship with blender right now. It keeps chugging my beer and lighting it's burps... no wait... that's "Bender"! Blender has other ways of driving me up the wall.

[Simon B]

I really like the x-sidewinder!

It's the original sidewinder with bits cut out and extra bumps. More effort on the skin too.

The splotchy bits on the wings (and the cobra II) are rorschach patterns - so I've been waiting for people to complain that they look like some traumatic event in their childhood.

The original sidewinder, and this one, is four seperate shapes grouped ito two models. But the X version engines are too complex, so I had to split them. They are 408 triangles each grrrr.

I havn't seen them in the game yet ...

[Simon B]

... missile?

That skin is a complete waste on this thing.

Now I know you hardly see them, unless you do fancy tricks like rigging a screenshot to the missile control, but... it will look nice in the previews, and there is the possibility of giving some gunslinger fighters an external missile. That is, if I can work out a script to replace the ship with a ship+missile combo when the npc fires.

Then there's designers who like to plaster bits and pieces all over their models just because the plist entry says "has_engfeh = 1;" in it not looking at anyone in particular Griff.

Rational: in space you do not need the four fins for guidance but you may want to put some sensors far apart for triangulation/parrallax. I suspect I should have made the wings narrower.

[Disembodied]

Wings or no wings, I think it looks a little overengineered, really. It's a tube with a payload, designed for use in vacuum. I don't see the need for the (otherwise quite attractive) shapeliness of the missile body. It needs to be less refined: at the moment it looks too aerodynamic.

For triangulation purposes, and maybe to stop the wings looking so much like wings, it might be better to shorten them a bit and add on a third, so they become a bit like the feathers on an arrow. I like the swollen engine housing and the larger warhead but I think the body needs to be plainer: narrowing down into a straight cylinder (or even just some sort of strut) quite sharply after the engine, then swelling out again into a more bulbous and crude-looking warhead. Missiles are a pretty cheap-and-dirty technology in Oolite!