Oolite Bulletins

Understandable and well put, that said. You know how to build stuff. I know how to build stuff (roughly). We may not be the best people to ask as to the exclusivity of our art.

Smivs wrote:

Perhaps WIPs simply should not be released as OXZs at all. Release them as OXPs to get the testing and feedback, then when you are fully happy with them, release them as OXZs.

No, I completely disagree. The OXZ system is the most efficient way we have of distributing AddOns in any state, and we shouldn't be shy to use it to distribute WIPs, demos, and vague ideas. The problem there is all the OXZs go into one big, anonymous pool. We need a way to filter that pool so that normal players only get offered known good stuff.

By known good stuff I mean the pool minus the half-finished, but also minus the generally lame, too.

Wildeblood wrote:

No, I completely disagree. The OXZ system is the most efficient way we have of distributing AddOns in any state, and we shouldn't be shy to use it to distribute WIPs, demos, and vague ideas. The problem there is all the OXZs go into one big, anonymous pool. We need a way to filter that pool so that normal players only get offered known good stuff.

By known good stuff I mean the pool minus the half-finished, but also minus the generally lame, too.

I agree. Maybe we should have two "folders" in OXZ manager, one for Finished and one for WIPs?

For example, once the Ship Comms OXZ is workable enough to be released (pretty soon), I will still keep adding more messages to it so it will be a WIP, but I would want to release it as OXZ as it's the most reliable way of making sure all players are up to speed.

Wildeblood wrote:

Smivs wrote:

Perhaps WIPs simply should not be released as OXZs at all. Release them as OXPs to get the testing and feedback, then when you are fully happy with them, release them as OXZs.

No, I completely disagree. The OXZ system is the most efficient way we have of distributing AddOns in any state, and we shouldn't be shy to use it to distribute WIPs, demos, and vague ideas. The problem there is all the OXZs go into one big, anonymous pool. We need a way to filter that pool so that normal players only get offered known good stuff.

By known good stuff I mean the pool minus the half-finished, but also minus the generally lame, too.

We could agree on using "wip" tag and the next version of Oolite could mark wips differently in the manager.

Smivs wrote:

However this should be done by the 'responsible adult'...

Who me? Okay, I'll do it - where do I start?

The opinion of an end-user: I tend to think that WIPs should not be listed in the in-game OXZ manager.

another_commander wrote:

Paradox wrote:

Then why do I include texture templates, original .obj files, and explicitly state in my OXPs that making changes to them are, in fact, highly encouraged? I'm an adult, I neither need, nor want, anyone telling me what I can and can't access or change in MY game.

This is fine and of course nobody can tell anyone what they can and can't change in one's game. However, if you want people to be able to tweak the expansions you release and you release them as OXZs, then you are doing it wrong. You should be releasing them as old-school OXPs.

So my oxps are then never seen by the "newbies", unless they specifically come to the wiki and search for them. Which, they would never do, because they wouldn't even know they exist...

Isn't the spirit of the license, that most of us publish under, intended to encourage modification and change?

This attitude of "I made this, and I don't want YOU to change it!" Is not why I became a part of this Oolite community.

I vote for OXPs and OXZs being kept in the same addons folder.

I vote for OXZs to include an internal folder structure which includes the .oxp extension, making it easier for modders to simply extract it if they wish to make changes.

I vote for anything that Oolite easier for me to mold into the game I want it to be, instead of what others dictate to me.

If you don't want people to modify your oxz, then perhaps a closed source/closed mod type game would be more suitable.

It's time, isn't it? And motivation. Writing a wiki article takes a long time (as Dizzie knows ) and one problem is that the people who can are usually too busy to do.
For example I've been meaning to update and expand my Texturing tutorial for ages, but all my spare time is taken up with OXP-related stuff. This is a problem which won't go away.

Doing something like this might be necessary though. The 'old way' of people jumping in at the deep end, learning as they go along, might be coming to an end, which is a shame really as it's a great way to learn, and means that anybody can have a go with minimal starting knowledge.

But this is getting away from the discussion on 'dodgy' OXZs. having been part of this debate, and having thought about this a bit more I feel that an expansion should simply NOT be released as an OXZ until it is fully finished and polished, is completely up to date and is tested as working. WIPs, old OXPs and newcomers' work should only be released as an OXP until such time as it can be considered fit to become an OXZ (part of the game, if you like).
This way, all this material is available for anybody to download and use, it can be tested adequately in the real world, and it means that new and in-experienced authors can get their 'foot on the ladder' in a less pressurised way.

Paradox wrote:

I vote for OXZs to include an internal folder structure which includes the .oxp extension, making it easier for modders to simply extract it if they wish to make changes.

That's an interesting idea..

If I can extract and tweak the contents of an OXZ (which I can), then it can't be too hard, and shouldn't need anything else.

As for vote this, vote that - stuff all that nonsense!

I disagree with Smivs on this one. I think restricting WIPs to OXP only and completely leaving them out of the expansion pack manager is the wrong way to go.

Use of the WIP tag (I still have this tag on both of mine) to have them filtered out of the listing by default seems like a good idea, as long as it's possible to easily change the filtering options, and it's made clear to the user that there are items that aren't shown.

- Neelix

Cody wrote:

If I can extract and tweak the contents of an OXZ (which I can), then it can't be too hard, and shouldn't need anything else.

As for vote this, vote that - stuff all that nonsense!

Not good enough. You are not average Cody. In actual fact you are a good chunk above average as a result what you find easy is tricky to others. I stand by the idea and principle of the holistic oolite walk through. We need a Haynes manual for oolite.

ClymAngus wrote:

... as a result what you find easy is tricky to others.

<chortles> Who said I find it easy?

Smivs wrote:

But this is getting away from the discussion on 'dodgy' OXZs. having been part of this debate, and having thought about this a bit more I feel that an expansion should simply NOT be released as an OXZ until it is fully finished and polished, is completely up to date and is tested as working. WIPs, old OXPs and newcomers' work should only be released as an OXP until such time as it can be considered fit to become an OXZ (part of the game, if you like).

In principle I very much agree with you, Smivs. But it would require the devs to start making rules about OXP/Zs (and be willing to enforce them), something they've never shown any inclination to do. Relying on people's goodwill won't do - you've already seen the petulant response to the simple thought experiment of asking people to think about which of their creations are most worthy of inclusion. So, it seems inevitable that soon the OXZ manager will look like the OXP list page on the wiki. (This is getting a bit depressing.)

Cody wrote:

ClymAngus wrote:

... as a result what you find easy is tricky to others.

<chortles> Who said I find it easy?

Will you settle for easier?

ClymAngus wrote:

Will you settle for easier?

Once you've done it a couple of times, yes - which was the same with OXPs when I first tinkered.