Vector Map

[ClymAngus]

as a side note:

#103. Bebidiso (83,223), {20,22,48,57,80,109,188,191,243,247} within 7.0 LY. Radius 3667 km. Dictatorship, Poor Agri. Pop. 3.1 B, Prod. 5208 MCr. HC: 10, TL: 6, Human Colonials.

does not link to;

#239. Areis (66,252), {26,51,80,169,247} within 7.0 LY. Radius 6722 km.
Confederacy, Mainly Agri. Pop. 4.2 B, Prod. 18144 MCr. HC: 5, TL: 9, Human Colonials.

so the special trade route through the 2 is invalid.

and

#247. Soinisat (72,251), {26,51,80,103,169,188,191,239} within 7.0 LY. Radius 4680 km.Corporate State, Mainly Ind. Pop. 4.3 B, Prod. 26488 MCr. HC: 8, TL: 9, Fierce Red Bony Felines

does connect with.

#191. Onxequte (88,234), {20,21,22,98,103,188,243,247} within 7.0 LY. Radius 6744 km. Feudal, Poor Ind. Pop. 2.8 B, Prod. 8960 MCr. HC: 8, TL: 7, Yellow Horned Humanoids.

finding 2 such route errors so close together is troubling, because if this trend extends over the entire map. It may cause people to base sector and route choices on inaccurate information. I'll do some light route adjusting to help try and fix this.

[Disembodied]

But they're not significant. They're the product of a pseudorandom seed. If we try too hard to force meaning on the inherently meaningless, we'll only produce something that feels like an obvious kludge.

Their generation may be by a pseudo-random seed, however that randomness was initially carefully selected by the creators, until it met certain needs.

Please don't fall in to the trap of discounting meaningfulness, based solely on its randomly generated nature.

Well, without getting too existential ... The creators, Ian Bell and David Braben, carefully selected a seed which would produce varied planets, endlessly, within defined parameters. They did a bit of editing to make sure that none of the planet names came out rude, and that most of each galaxy was actually reachable, and that was that. The clumps and clusters of industrial planets, communist planets etc. that we find are wholly fortuitous, unintentional and have no underlying purpose or meaning.

My concern is that any attempt to create one big backstory which "explains" all these accidents will be, of necessity, crude, clunky and arbitrary. I don't see the need to explain everything, when it's obvious that, inside the game universe (i.e. where these are all real planets, many of which have evolved over billions of years, producing their own unique sentient species and civilisations), chance alone will produce clumps and clusters. By all means have little pocket Industrial Trading Federations, or Agricultural Co-Prosperity Spheres, here and there wherever it feels right – but there's no need for one Grand Unified Theory!

[PhantorGorth]

But they're not significant. They're the product of a pseudorandom seed.

From a out-game point of view you are right but from in-game point of view those are real systems and real clusters.

If we're not going to give (or even come up with) an explanation, then why do we need a rationale, even in principle? Those that want it can imagine one on their own. Those that don't, won't. To me, that's a better solution than trying to think up an underlying "reason" which at least as many people will disagree with as agree – because it doesn't fit with their own concept of their personal ooniverse. In a single-player game like Oolite, where everyone gets to customise the ooniverse to suit themselves, it makes sense to keep any backstory elements to a minimum, especially for something so large-scale as maps of all the galactic sectors.

I agrees with you to a point that it should be left to the players imagination to fill in the details. But if we are to take that point to it's final conclusion Clym shouldn't have put any regions on any of the maps at all.

What I am look for is that there is at least a hint to people that there is some possible unnamed backplot or reason for a feature that is clear as day. My ramblings are really to show that such reason could exist but I am not that tied down to any particular one. In fact Clym pointing out that the systems in these clusters are of such a mix of government types that an overall organisation would be harder to justify. I have to agree with that hence trying to put it as a historic thing.

The problem I was having was it appeared to be the ONLY criteria for a group.

I can't argue with that.

1) Random. (the "fight club" solution championed by the cerebellum under glass)
2) Natural there is something physically or enviromentally then lends these worlds to becoming industrial.
3) Past empire that encompassed most if not all of G6, so you can still see the "organising hand" but much like the soviet union it has since fractured into soveren states.
4) it's still an empire, and we go through and rename accordingly. Maybe pushing things a litte more in the direction of sector economic exclusivity.

For 1) I have said enough times now that I can't see that being the case.
I can't rule out 2) but I know enough astrophysics to know that would be difficult. For 3) and 4) I was thinking it was a few empires that are historic and only remnants remain. I have moved from my original concept on my version of the map becuase of the mixed government type arguement.

Oh you don't have to but it's helpful. It is a kickstarting factor. Asteroid mining, I like that! That's good, maybe there's a particularly rich belt of asteroids that cuts a swaith through this map. all worthy options and possible solutions to the current clumping issue.

My astrophysics background tells me that that isn't likely as you wouldn't get asteroid fields that big. Oort clouds are as big as they get. Mores the pity because otherwise I would have liked that.

but due to inconsistences in the debris cloud it is quite possible (some would argue near garrenteed) that different parts of an interstella dust cloud are going to get differnt forces applied to them and get differnt mixes of exotic minerals. So it's still a possibility.

ClymAngus wrote:
"generally, an average of 40 tons per day of extraterrestrial material falls to the Earth."
Basically far from being easy to disregard with brash but incorrect statements. Its possible.


PhantorGorth wrote:

Not really most of that 40 tons would come from the material already in the system not interstellar space. etc....

Now you see we're jumping round the time line here to suit our particular argument. If the nova had occured and resulted in the forming of the systems then it's possible that the mix of materials could have been effected by it. And round and round we go. It's still plausable.

I think you are missing the astrophysic issues here. Let me explain better.

Nearly all stars form in clusters from collapsing gas and dust clouds. These clouds are enriched by local supernovae to them and often the collapse is triggered by those novae. Large volumes of these clouds form the material for the stars so each of those supernova contribute significant matter to the new stars and solar systems. So a highly enriched cloud is quite possible. Unfortunately the time taken for planets to form and settle down (solidified surfaces on terrestrial planets) is actually longer than the time scale for the cluster to disperse. So yes you can have mineral enriched systems but by the time the planets are like those we see in the game they must be more than the few hundred millions years old and no longer near their siblings.

If you take the idea these systems are a standard mix of stars from a few hundred of million of years old to billions of year old instead then a local supernova to G6 won't contribute much matter to each planet because each solar system has, for want of a better term, becomes a very small target. Most of the nova's star mass that gets ejected which is mineral making would be so thinly spread out and would remain between the stars awaiting another gas cloud colapse before ending up in any star system. That 40 tonnes a year or similar for each planet in G6 can only be like that based on the parent gas cloud for each star in it's dim and distant past. This is the case because solar systems don't move through the galaxy with the interstellar gases passing through them instead each system carries the remains of its parent cloud with them and there isn't a lot of exchange with the interstellar medium. As the stars in G6 are a mix for some it could make a difference based on the stars parent cloud but for the rest it wouldn't and this would be random and there would be no mineral clustering.

This means it just doesn't happen like you imagine.

Because of these considerations I was thinking along the lines of a more scentient action based idea hence empires or similar.

No I just want you to justify it.

I have been trying to since when you decided that what I originally did wasn't good enough.

We're getting close to a good compromise that will keep everyone happy. That starts with exploring the options, challenging each other. There is a hell of a lot of your work in my map 6 already, alterations yes. "Tearing apart" is a tad strong for an evolutionary process.?

Well the the main feature I did has gone and that's what I am having to justify again.

I suggest we both take a moment to calm down and take a look at the possibilities layed out at the top of my post. I hope this covers everything we have discussed here. from that we can whittle. What do you say?

I hope we get there. We could really do with more peoples opinions.

[Disembodied]

But they're not significant. They're the product of a pseudorandom seed.

From a out-game point of view you are right but from in-game point of view those are real systems and real clusters.

Which might – in fact, I think it's arguable that several of them would – have their origin in random chance. Randomness produces clusters. A smooth even spread isn't random. There is no need to explain everything.

I agrees with you to a point that it should be left to the players imagination to fill in the details. But if we are to take that point to it's final conclusion Clym shouldn't have put any regions on any of the maps at all.

Well, maybe, except I see no need to take things to that extreme conclusion. Why not just mark out areas that you like, call them something suitably portentous and don't worry about finding one single backstory to explain them all?

What I am look for is that there is at least a hint to people that there is some possible unnamed backplot or reason for a feature that is clear as day. My ramblings are really to show that such reason could exist but I am not that tied down to any particular one. In fact Clym pointing out that the systems in these clusters are of such a mix of government types that an overall organisation would be harder to justify. I have to agree with that hence trying to put it as a historic thing.

Don't sweat it, is my advice! Because let's face it, there is no reason for these clumps: they're just the product of a pseudorandom seed which was designed as a clever way of creating thousands of "different planets" using the barest minimum of memory, for a game that used less RAM than the Oolite icon does now. Any explanatory theory will almost certainly be full of holes, because of all the anomalous bits that just don't fit. Even worse, you'd be asking an anarchic collective, who are running their own personalised, customised versions of the game, to buy into one overarching canon, and I don't see that happening before the sun goes out ...

There are many possible reasons for clusters. Three of them are:

1) random chance. There's no logical objection to this that I can see: random chance exists! In fact it's the single biggest influence on life, the universe and everything that we know of.
2) Natural. Frankly our knowledge of extrasolar astrophysics, and particularly extrasolar astrophysics within a game universe where FTL and wormholes happen and the planets are all incredibly close to their parent stars, just isn't up to ruling this out.
3) pre-existing, and possibly still existing, mini-empires (or federations, or alliances, or whatever)

It's likely that all three are involved, in a variety of combinations. Why not have, or suggest the existence of, lots of little backstories? To me that seems a lot more interesting, and a lot less overbearing, than one great big lumbering Reason Behind It All.

[ClymAngus]

I'm trying really hard to incorperate the main thrust of your idea's regarding this map. The one thing I'd hate is that if this level of order should be insitgated then it should at least reasonable unasaillable.

I really don't want the next 14 year old that surfs on in slapping up valid arguments why our combined work is shit. We're better that that. Unfortunately it requires some hard and nasty questions to be asked now, to avoid this occurance in the future.

OK people WE need your help. We have possible options.

1) RANDOM = it just is Deal.
2) Natural = another encompasing zone that that shows the transgalactic flow into this system that sparked off the separation we see today.
3) Creature made = old empire gone fut bang but it's legasy continues.

Time to start taking a care in the evolution of YOUR ooniverse......

I can make it pretty whatever the outcome there is no loyalty here there is only what rings true.

[pmw57]

1) RANDOM = it just is Deal.
2) Natural = another encompasing zone that that shows the transgalactic flow into this system that sparked off the separation we see today.
3) Creature made = old empire gone fut bang but it's legasy continues.

Can you please recap for us less involved participants, what are the patterns that you're wanting to interpret?

[Disembodied]

And – if I could suggest – 4) There's no need to provide an explanation; we'll work it out to our own satisfaction by ourselves!

[ClymAngus]

that would be option 1 then sir

[Disembodied]

Well ... I suppose! Although we wouldn't have to explicitly state it was random. If someone wanted to imagine that a big cluster of Industrial worlds was because sometime in the ancient past, some Precursor Race planted their type-one monoliths there instead of the type-twos, then that's fine. And frankly, "Natural" is pretty much the same as "random", too – the universe did it, OK?

[ClymAngus]

1) RANDOM = it just is Deal.
2) Natural = another encompasing zone that that shows the transgalactic flow into this system that sparked off the separation we see today.
3) Creature made = old empire gone fut bang but it's legasy continues.

Can you please recap for us less involved participants, what are the patterns that you're wanting to interpret?

OK this is mainly a zone thing relating to the fact that this map, due to some unfortunate quirk of fate tends to have economic clusters. The debate has been going back and forth as to wether this is significant and the level of significance that should be given it.

As this has boiled down, (it seems) to natural vs old sentient order vs don't bother. We would like to poll oppinion on what actually seems to be more plausable.

I'm thinking natural.

Phara is thinking more old empire

brain is leaning towards don't bother.

as a result we've hit something of an impasse as we're all reasonable debaters but fundimentally more people than just us are going to have to fly through the f**ker.

I'm sure I can pretty any of these 3 options, and dispite the occassional forceful post, I don't want to rail road the argument. I'll defent my opinion but I do bend to popular opinion. A map made by one man is for that man alone, at the end of the day.

I hope you can see the problem and will enlighten us with your views. One can be too close to a project such as this.

[pmw57]

1) RANDOM = it just is Deal.
2) Natural = another encompasing zone that that shows the transgalactic flow into this system that sparked off the separation we see today.
3) Creature made = old empire gone fut bang but it's legasy continues.

I'll go with option 3, as it's more difficult for clusters of industrial worlds to form around the edge. From the centre it's much easier for them to obtain resources from systems on all sides.

[ClymAngus]

cool 3 plays 2 plays 1. Anyone else?

[Commander McLane]

As someone who followed this whole discussion with sort of a loose, amused interest, without much interfering, I'd like to say as few things:

(1) I appreciate your efforts. All of them.

(2) I don't see the need to explain everything in the layout of the charts. Because,

(3) while I do see the advantages of a backstory (hence my appraisal of Selezen's work), I'd have it rather not too detailed. And this is, because

(4) I as an OXPer with special interest in scripting missions (which require a backstory if they are to have any depth, see Cataclysm) don't feel comfortable to be bound too much by the detailed backstories other people (you) have come up with. Chances are that there is no place in the Ooniverse left where I can hook in with my backstory (I have to see how this for instance works out with a certain region in Galaxy 3 I am writing an OXP for). The danger is that your artistic decisions will reduce my artistic freedom. Therefore

(5) the more detailed and explaining-everything your backstories are, the greater the chances that I am going to ignore them completely, if it comes to my next OXP. So if I say that

(6) I don't care what explains the layout of Galaxy 6, I mean that I don't want to care until I actually see one explanation or the other in-game, through an OXP that either I myself or somebody else has written.

I know, I am sort of derailing your whole concept here, so feel free to ignore me. It might be that I'll feel free to ignore your maps, though.

[ClymAngus]

Spoken like the true constructive anarchist we know and love.

It looks like we're veering towards "old empire regions" then, I was going to sort out the somewhat pressing "now you see it now you don't" special route issues and maybe try out some names, then I think we'll come back to this in a days time when everyone has had a chance to throw their tennus pennath in.

time for some http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LeLAELIxKY

I think.

[PhantorGorth]

I'd have it rather not too detailed

Can not agree more. So if people choose option 2 or 3 then Clym should probably be marking the clusters in some way and 1 means he doesn't. Then the only issue might be naming and if that is vague enough I would have thought that would satisfy you.