Oolite Bulletins

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Okti wrote:

Not sure about the requires_cargo_space entry in equipment.plist, last time I bought an equipment stating that key was ages ago. And launched and docked again and can use the cargo space again. May be due to the oxp ship I am using, but does it really work?

I hope so... I'm still working on it, and it's going well so far.

If it doesn't work, I'll try awarding some tons worth of [wiki=Oolite_JavaScript_Reference:_PlayerShip]useSpecialCargo[/wiki].

Nope, that would make no cargo space available at all. I think that options on cargo must wait till after 1.76 is released. But very good thoughts so far and I realy apreciate it

Okti wrote:

Nope, that would make no cargo space available at all. I think that options on cargo must wait till after 1.76 is released. But very good thoughts so far and I realy apreciate it

So making it like the Large Cargo Bay or Passenger Berth doesn't work at all?

Switeck wrote:

So making it like the Large Cargo Bay or Passenger Berth doesn't work at all?

Well remembered!
I'll use your suggestion and award some to take up space, but have no idea of how to script a permanent passenger. This will be a provisory solution until the requires_cargo_space issue is solved.

Keep trying Cmdr. Maegil, I'm sure you will eventually figure it out.

but...

applying it to an open sandbox oolite when there is nothing in hard-code to specify how many equipment slots a ship has, say, based upon the mass of the ship itself, or something like that, means that you have a frontiers situation on your hands where bigger ships have the advantage of unlimited equipment because of all the cargo space available. I believe that the devs have said in a previous post a long time ago that what they are in favor of is equipment slots built into the ship based upon mass within the hardcode of the game. And perhaps not even oolite itself but a branch of oolite. I think Okti is very right about this one, unfortunately.

on the other hand...

if one was to apply it to a closed sandbox oolite, which from your previous posts I'm sure you wouldn't be interested in this, one could simulate something like Elite A and perhaps work out all the fine details and determine if it is even worth pursuing this concept as a branch of oolite. A huge amount of work, to be sure, but I think more than 50% would rather play this type of balanced game with clear lines of ship progression. No hitlers with death stars and super lasers.

Believe it or not, it's on my drawing board. I believe proper interface between player and game is the way to accomplish this as an oxp. The first step of custom gauges on the hud that can display any data you choose is now fact. At my current pace, I give it 2 years to accomplish, with all the bells and whistles developed along the way.

Well a guy can dream, can't he?

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Perhaps it's not such a great idea to have superlasers you can purchase, or buyable death stars for that matter. Either in game or in a parallel universe.

I beg to disagree!

So you are talking about standalone OXPs then (or simple anarchy) - say goodbye to the concept of running OXPs together.

Svengali wrote:

So you are talking about standalone OXPs then (or simple anarchy) - say goodbye to the concept of running OXPs together.

I'm sorry, I can't make out your meaning, or even whom you're addressing...
Would you mind to rephrase?

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Would you mind to rephrase?

Sure .-)

The freedom to do whatever is possible implies that the strongest (OXP) wins (...or the last loaded). The impact on other OXPs or mechanisms in the game is a technical question for me (not a ethical or philosophical one). And most clashes are 'silent' clashes, so there is no way for a user to decide if he wants this or not and the often stated 'don't install it' is not valid - how should a user be aware of it? Personally I think that we could need a mechanism to sync OXP mechanisms to avoid clashes, but I have tried to establish such a thing twice in the last years (and Okti tried it once too) without any result or response.

I confess I still haven't understood your meaning... What I'm doing is expanding the players' niche on the same Ooniverse, giving them (and later also an NPC version) access to equipment proportional to the ships they fly.
A good example of what I'm doing is in this snippet; each 4 banks (see this.foreCapacitorRechargeRate for reference) weight 15t:

You mean you're going to add a lot more power to entities?

I'm aware that you only want to have some more fun while fighting, but the result is that this renders a lot of other stuff useless. For me it means that this will give all kind of weird behaviours in every mission as this is completely untested. It can even result in unkillable entities, because some OXPs are already adding Uber ships and giving them even more power is likely to cause even more trouble.

In my eyes a better way would be to give scripts/AIs more influence on performAttack. This would give OXPs a way to create interesting fights completely within the native range.

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

I confess I still haven't understood your meaning... What I'm doing is expanding the players' niche on the same Ooniverse, giving them (and later also an NPC version) access to equipment proportional to the ships they fly.
A good example of what I'm doing is in this snippet; each 4 banks (see this.foreCapacitorRechargeRate for reference) weight 15t:

Code: Select all

if(equipmentKey == ("EQ_FORWARD_SHIELD_CAPACITOR"))
      {
      this.foreCapacitorMaxEnergy = 256; // 4 more shield energy banks 
      this.foreCapacitorRechargeRate =1; // to be multiplied by the shield recharge rate (2, or 3 with military shield enhancers; require shield boosters)
      }
      else
      {
   if(equipmentKey == ("EQ_FORWARD_MILITARY_CAPACITOR"))
      {
      this.foreCapacitorMaxEnergy = 768; // 12 more banks
      this.foreCapacitorRechargeRate =3; // multiplied by 3 = 9 - from this capacitor onwards, military shield enhancers are pre-requirements
      }
      	else
      {
   if(equipmentKey == ("EQ_FORWARD_CAPITAL_CAPACITOR"))
      {
      this.foreCapacitorMaxEnergy = 3072; // 48 more banks 
      this.foreCapacitorRechargeRate = 12; // effectively 32, immune against a single military laser
      }
      else
      {
   if(equipmentKey == ("EQ_FORWARD_CARRIER_CAPACITOR"))
      {
      this.foreCapacitorMaxEnergy = 9216; // 144 more banks 
      this.foreCapacitorRechargeRate =36; // effectively 108 - more than 1.5 shield energy banks per second 
      else
      {
   if(equipmentKey == ("EQ_FORWARD_SUPERCARRIER_CAPACITOR"))
      {
      this.foreCapacitorMaxEnergy = 18432; // 288 more banks
      this.foreCapacitorRechargeRate =72; // effectively 214 - 3.34 banks per second
      }
      }
      }
      }
   }

Are you intending to release this stuff for general use alongside all other oxp's? If so, you better come up with unique names for your equipment as that breaks my shield equalizer and capacitors oxp and/or possible line of progression. Also, if it does the same thing mine does in the same way then it is effectively taking my oxp away from me without even asking. Lone Wolf and myself worked hard not to step on each others toes and to maintain game balance. Did you miss the part in my equipment's viewtopic where I spelled out the limits of where the capacitor concept starts to make the game with most missions too easy and testing for several months to be sure of where I set that limit? If I don't want you to destroy my oxp and I ask you nicely not to make super capacitors, would you respect that?

With NPCs you can already make them invulnerable by giving them high energy and recharge. An invulnerable player is a bored one. Doing this will generally break the game.

Svengali wrote:

You mean you're going to add a lot more power to entities?
I'm aware that you only want to have some more fun while fighting, but the result is that this renders a lot of other stuff useless.

What I'm doing is offering the player a way to fully customize his ship, whatever the size (larger ships have more options available).

A few examples, using a Cobra Mk3 and a Boa:

- a Cobra Mk 3:
- an Iron-assed cobbie pirate or bounty hunter could equip a basic forward capacitor , a shield equilizer and a basic plasma accelerator, but that would mean it also needed a basic auxiliary power plant to recharge his quickly drained energy banks and increase speed (at the cost of fuel); in the end the compromises would leave him with minimal cargo space;
- the veteran trader might find the extra power plant's speed boost even more desirable; coupled with basic rear shields and the good old beam laser it makes for a ship capable or running from almost anything. He'd rather equip an external fuel pod than lose yet more cargo space on an internal tank, though.

- a Boa 2:
- in military configuration, it'd have mismatched shield capacitors to withstand frontal direct hits of up to second level plasma accelerators (of which it also has one), and the biggest power plant it could fit to increase the recharge rate, and thus the fire rate - plus a sizeable internal fuel tank for operating it;
- The peaceful veteran trader, on the other hand, might appreciate the same configuration as the Cobra Mk 3 - adding a basic forward capacitor and the equalizer would give him a sizeable overall reserve on both shields; since he's not thinking of staying and fighting against plasma accelerators, this trader has no real need for military grade capacitors
- The smuggler or blocade runner won't need a large gun, but are very interested in a big frontal shield, lots of speed and fuel enough to get them out of any jam.

- NPCs: They'll also have a small chance of having this type of equipment - some roles will always have some of the equipment according to size, though. I still have to look for a template and learn a bit more about roles (and everything else, really).

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

With NPCs you can already make them invulnerable by giving them high energy and recharge. An invulnerable player is a bored one. Doing this will generally break the game.

For me it means that this will give all kind of weird behaviours in every mission as this is completely untested.

Yes, it's a ground-breaking development .
I expect this might tilt previously balanced pitched battles, but other OXPs like NPCshields already do that by making thargons disproportionately harder to kill. There will be some adjustment, some traders and the fighting roles will get tougher, but in all I am hoping to eventually regain an internal balance with the use of the complete set of OXPs.

It can even result in unkillable entities, because some OXPs are already adding Uber ships and giving them even more power is likely to cause even more trouble.

If the player can equip his ship to be a monster from the deep compared to an unshielded vanilla adder, why can't he now and then come face to face with other monsters or even Cthulhu himself? It's a even a good opportunity to remember the lessons about when to run... .
In any case, there are not all those many ships which can survive a direct hit of the Yamato Plasma Accelerator (which I also intend to give NPCs , but no problem - the ships carrying them are so big you needn't worry about being surprised).

In my eyes a better way would be to give scripts/AIs more influence on performAttack. This would give OXPs a way to create interesting fights completely within the native range.

Good idea. I would be specially interested in group tactics.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Are you intending to release this stuff for general use alongside all other oxp's? If so, you better come up with unique names for your equipment as that breaks my shield equalizer and capacitors oxp and/or possible line of progression.

EQ_FORWARD_SHIELD_CAPACITOR was a slip. Basically where your code said forward or aft I changed to fore and rear.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Also, if it does the same thing mine does in the same way then it is effectively taking my oxp away from me without even asking. Lone Wolf and myself worked hard not to step on each others toes and to maintain game balance.

It does more or less what your does, with some balancing differences, and on a different scale. Furthermore, it's not supposed to break your OXP, but to be used alongside it.
Nevertheless, you have legitimate points saying I might be usurping your OXP's line of progression - that is exactly what I did, and using much of your code.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

If I don't want you to destroy my oxp and I ask you nicely not to make super capacitors, would you respect that?

Had you demanded, I'd have rubbed in the CC-NC-by-SA.

Since the concept and more than half the code are yours, if you asked politely, I would (with great sorrow) scrape releasing the project and probably would end up cancelling the rest of the suite, as I had also set my eyes on your Q-charger. Please don't ask...

Svengali wrote:

Personally I think that we could need a mechanism to sync OXP mechanisms to avoid clashes, but I have tried to establish such a thing twice in the last years (and Okti tried it once too) without any result or response.

That is very true, even from well established members I did not get a response. The latest thing I found was to use this.shipSpawned event to remove every other ship which would not fit into a stage of a mission. I would suggest the same thing again. Any OXP Author must be aware of he or she may do something to bugger a mission oxp and must provide a way to cancel what they are doing providing a call back or any other mechanism. Deleting a world script may work as well but removing a ship that uses timers or frameCallBacks may cause problems.

We are a very small comunity with just under 300 members active I reckon, so we must make sure anything we do will not bugger some one elses work.

@Maegil: Heh - so in fact you ARE talking about standalone OXPs (or fractions of OXPs which are only compatible to each other). It's not wrong (as in 'error'), only problematic for other OXPs and all users out there. I only wanted to show that placing global working mechanisms is not a walk in the park and needs a lot of thinking about possible problems and clashes. Often it needs a good knowledge of other OXPs as well. Probably it's just a question of limiters, either engineside restrictions or selfrestriction in OXPs, but in all cases it's worth to think about it before running into trouble.

@Okti: Yep. Cleaning up is the only option at the moment, though a little bit CPU intensive. Cabal_Common_Strength is using a missionVariable (mission_CCL_OXPStrength) to avoid the spawning of strong entities which have specified conditions in shipdata. It is set to 9 by default, lower values are indicating strength level. The variable is reset on entering witchspace if no system setting is specified for the target system.

<relax mode on>
Things could be worse and after all we are all loving this game. Let's see what v1.76 brings...

Edit: Forgot to mention. CCL_OXPStrength is still WIP. A new release will come when v1.76 is there.

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:

Svengali wrote:

You mean you're going to add a lot more power to entities?
I'm aware that you only want to have some more fun while fighting, but the result is that this renders a lot of other stuff useless.

What I'm doing is offering the player a way to fully customize his ship, whatever the size (larger ships have more options available).

A few examples, using a Cobra Mk3 and a Boa:

- a Cobra Mk 3:
- an Iron-assed cobbie pirate or bounty hunter could equip a basic forward capacitor , a shield equilizer and a basic plasma accelerator, but that would mean it also needed a basic auxiliary power plant to recharge his quickly drained energy banks and increase speed (at the cost of fuel); in the end the compromises would leave him with minimal cargo space;
- the veteran trader might find the extra power plant's speed boost even more desirable; coupled with basic rear shields and the good old beam laser it makes for a ship capable or running from almost anything. He'd rather equip an external fuel pod than lose yet more cargo space on an internal tank, though.

- a Boa 2:
- in military configuration, it'd have mismatched shield capacitors to withstand frontal direct hits of up to second level plasma accelerators (of which it also has one), and the biggest power plant it could fit to increase the recharge rate, and thus the fire rate - plus a sizeable internal fuel tank for operating it;
- The peaceful veteran trader, on the other hand, might appreciate the same configuration as the Cobra Mk 3 - adding a basic forward capacitor and the equalizer would give him a sizeable overall reserve on both shields; since he's not thinking of staying and fighting against plasma accelerators, this trader has no real need for military grade capacitors
- The smuggler or blocade runner won't need a large gun, but are very interested in a big frontal shield, lots of speed and fuel enough to get them out of any jam.

- NPCs: They'll also have a small chance of having this type of equipment - some roles will always have some of the equipment according to size, though. I still have to look for a template and learn a bit more about roles (and everything else, really).

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

With NPCs you can already make them invulnerable by giving them high energy and recharge. An invulnerable player is a bored one. Doing this will generally break the game.

For me it means that this will give all kind of weird behaviours in every mission as this is completely untested.

Yes, it's a ground-breaking development .
I expect this might tilt previously balanced pitched battles, but other OXPs like NPCshields already do that by making thargons disproportionately harder to kill. There will be some adjustment, some traders and the fighting roles will get tougher, but in all I am hoping to eventually regain an internal balance with the use of the complete set of OXPs.

It can even result in unkillable entities, because some OXPs are already adding Uber ships and giving them even more power is likely to cause even more trouble.

If the player can equip his ship to be a monster from the deep compared to an unshielded vanilla adder, why can't he now and then come face to face with other monsters or even Cthulhu himself? It's a even a good opportunity to remember the lessons about when to run... .
In any case, there are not all those many ships which can survive a direct hit of the Yamato Plasma Accelerator (which I also intend to give NPCs , but no problem - the ships carrying them are so big you needn't worry about being surprised).

In my eyes a better way would be to give scripts/AIs more influence on performAttack. This would give OXPs a way to create interesting fights completely within the native range.

Good idea. I would be specially interested in group tactics.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Are you intending to release this stuff for general use alongside all other oxp's? If so, you better come up with unique names for your equipment as that breaks my shield equalizer and capacitors oxp and/or possible line of progression.

EQ_FORWARD_SHIELD_CAPACITOR was a slip. Basically where your code said forward or aft I changed to fore and rear.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Also, if it does the same thing mine does in the same way then it is effectively taking my oxp away from me without even asking. Lone Wolf and myself worked hard not to step on each others toes and to maintain game balance.

It does more or less what your does, with some balancing differences, and on a different scale. Furthermore, it's not supposed to break your OXP, but to be used alongside it.
Nevertheless, you have legitimate points saying I might be usurping your OXP's line of progression - that is exactly what I did, and using much of your code.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

If I don't want you to destroy my oxp and I ask you nicely not to make super capacitors, would you respect that?

Had you demanded, I'd have rubbed in the CC-NC-by-SA.

Since the concept and more than half the code are yours, if you asked politely, I would (with great sorrow) scrape releasing the project and probably would end up cancelling the rest of the suite, as I had also set my eyes on your Q-charger. Please don't ask...

Cmdr. Maegil, since I can't control you, I might as well support you. You alone may use both Shield Equalizer and Capacitors.oxp and Q-Chargers.oxp as part of your oxp.

There are some conditions and comments.

1)Are you up to coding this concept? If yes, then please proceed. If no, I would ask you not to start something without finishing it and continuing to upkeep it as well into the future.

2)Your oxp should play nice with these 2 oxps. There should also be no dependancies. Your oxp must contain any needed code from these 2 oxps within itself and use unique names for variables, EQ, and equipment. In effect, the equipment cannot be named shield capacitor, shield equalizer or Q-charger. Your oxp and these 2 oxps must be able to co-exist in the AddOns folder without breaking these 2 oxps.

3)There must be an identical license in your oxp and attribution for the code and concepts.


Oolite is the result of teamwork and I would advise you to get help from your fellow oxpers if needed. I have far too much on my plate to help with coding. I wish you luck and success.