Leaving

[Chrisfs]

(If anyone is interested in taking over the stuff I was working on - a new mission centred on a battle amid asteroids close to a sun, a new ship and realistic "traffic" to and from a station I designed - then PM me. I'm sure most of you have plenty of stuff to be getting on with already, though!)

I can't code and don't have the time to teach myself javascript, (maybe in January at the earliest), but I was refueling at a sun and thought about a battle with ships near the sun and whether, since I have heat shielding, flying into the sun would be an effective tactic to lose them.

[goran]

Sad day for sure.

I always considered Elite and Oolite great because it gives You a choice. With oolite and OXPs, that concept grows. For me RS/OSE never "clicked" in that concept as it's all or nothing kind, and there were little original work so most of things inside can be picked separately in original OXPs and by one's own preferences.

Legal concept aside, I don't understand how L doesn't respect explicit requests from the authors not to include their work into OSE. That's the other thing that doesn't "click", this time into this friendly and respectful society.

However, that's just my opinion and I know that Lestrade can LEGALLY do anything he wants with OXPs and Oolite itself (except from making money with it). And he does. Or did, still didn't catch up with all threads here.

So guys, reconsider and bring the friendliest bit back to this board.

[DaddyHoggy]

<wanders round smiling, waving, patting fellow BB members on the back, handing out brooms to those who accidentally make eye contact so they can help sweep up the mess>

Nothing to see people, let's get back to having fun!

[Cmdr James]

However, that's just my opinion and I know that Lestrade can LEGALLY do anything he wants with OXPs and Oolite itself (except from making money with it). And he does. Or did, still didn't catch up with all threads here.

I know this is stiring up the hornets nest, but one of the key points is that many of the OXPs are not suitably licensed for him to use, so in fact, he could not do "anything he wants" and therein lies part of the problem. He thought OXPs were coverd by oolite licenses, but (at least in Ahrumans opinion) they are not.

[Thargoid]

Chacky, in my opinion LB was talking about a physical impossibility, rather than say, 'a mental block'. What Thargoid just explained, admittedly in a way that doesn't make much sense to non-oxp makers: for much of its development, O(S)E was set up so it would be the very last oxp to load inside Oolite. When that's the case, no original OXP can actually be installed and run alongside OE, because whatever is inside the original OXP will be overruled / overwritten / overshadowed by anything inside OE. So technically there would be no chance to test the original OXPs with O(S)E, even with the best will in the world.

It seems to me that LittleBear simply didn't know that the situation had changed (the ZZZZ to aaaa switcharoo) in a way that technically will make it possible to test individual OXPs togather with OE. To be fair with LB, the ZZZZZ thing was announced by L way back, and was one of the main features of RS, even before it got bigger than 100Mb.

The only way LB would have learnt of the changed situation would have been to read through the 50+ pages of the OE thread, or do a 900mb download, both pretty daunting prospects, and very likely part of the 'OXP making is no fun anymore ' feeling LB mentioned elsewhere.

I myself was not aware of the change, and I have tried to keep up to date with that meta OXP.

I was explaining it to an OXP maker (LB) - that anyone else can read it was secondary in this case. And as to not being aware, understandable but I would have thought before basing such drastic action as stopping work you like doing (I presume) and get a great deal of respect for (I know), that the fundamentals of the argument would have been checked out first? Especially given LB's profession.

And a 900MB download is pretty large, but in this day and age it's less than 30mins by most people's ADSL or suchlike. Either that or just ask someone who does have it...

Anyway it's an academic point, I'm sure LB will reconsider or not as he sees fit.

[goran]

However, that's just my opinion and I know that Lestradae can LEGALLY do anything he wants with OXPs and Oolite itself (except from making money with it). And he does. Or did, still didn't catch up with all threads here.

I know this is stiring up the hornets nest, but one of the key points is that many of the OXPs are not suitably licensed for him to use, so in fact, he could not do "anything he wants" and therein lies part of the problem. He thought OXPs were coverd by oolite licenses, but (at least in Ahrumans opinion) they are not.

Yep, I stand corrected. The big A. cleared that licensing mess for me. If Lestradae also didn't know that, it can justify some of his reactions. It's all ego otherwise.

[Commander McLane]

... a 900MB download is pretty large, but in this day and age it's less than 30mins by most people's ADSL or suchlike.[/color]

The key point here being "most people's".

For the record: I won't even attempt to download anything larger than 150MB (and get increasingly angry with Apple for their security updates getting ever longer, but I disgress), because IT WON'T DOWNLOAD, EVER, with my current internet connection. For the same reason my absolute upload limit, is 10MB. I won't even attempt to upload anything bigger, because the stress of going through 95 per cent of the upload, then the server disconnecting (or the power cutting and my router going off; or a lightning hitting some in-between technical device; or rain starting in Nairobi; or whatever kind of incident that routinely breaks my connection after no longer than an hour, oftentimes much less than that), and me having to start all over again from zero is just too nerve-wrecking.

[Screet]

or whatever kind of incident that routinely breaks my connection after no longer than an hour, oftentimes much less than that), and me having to start all over again from zero is just too nerve-wrecking.

Check your router/modems config! A friend of mine had that problem. He thought that "Verbindung wiederherstellen <time interval>" would only fix broken connections, not that it would disconnect him

Typical providers either don't force disconnect or only do so after 24 hours. If disconnects are frequent, it's typically a wrong setup.

Screet

[Commander McLane]

No, it's not a provider thing. We have a direct satellite link to, hmmm..., where was it?..., currently Nairobi—I think—, but could also be somewhere in South Africa. Which is part of the problem, although on the other hand it is by far the best connection which you can get where I am living. Which only means that every other alternative is worse.

The basic problem is that all technical (and non-technical) equipment you can get in Africa is basically crap. Just imagine all the stuff that did not pass quality control in let's say Germany. Where does it end up? Don't think for a moment that they throw it away. No, they sell it in Africa! This is why on our local market you get thermos flasks which do not keep the heat, or mugs which are not perfectly round.

And the same applies to the technical stuff, from cars to computers.

Take the three internet breakdowns I got since I entered the office this morning. My best guess is that they were caused by the electrical lawn mower outside interfering with the wireless router. I then have to go to the office where the router is located and re-boot it by pulling and re-connecting the power plug. Three times this morning. Luckily I only read the boards, and didn't try to down- or upload anything. Now the gardener has moved to another lawn not in front of my office, and the connection seems fine. Until of course it starts raining and our IT-personal shut the whole installation down for fear of a lightning stroke. Or something else happens at the other end of the satellite link in wherever-it-currently-is. Or a drunk lorry driver hits a high voltage power mast somewhere near Kampala, and for a couple of hours a region of roughly 80000 square kilometers has no power at all, because there is no backup line, and it takes some time to replace the mast.

You get the idea of just how broad the choice is for things that can go wrong.

[Lestradae]

I guess I will have to say a few words to this before the mythos of the Dark Lord Sung II. who wanted to steal everybody's work takes too much root - falsely so.

I do still read a bit here on the forums and few of the postings seem to grasp the most basic facts of the conflict that happened. The barely supressed, quite obvious hate in some of them makes me shudder.

At the same time, quite some other people contact me and either suggest or ask (to) me to stay on and find a way to continue the OE project.

I want to issue the following statement and ask everybody who has to have an opinion or was involved in the quarrel to please consider the following four facts for the future:

1) I was working on RS/OSE/OE under the assumption that a lot of people here had, too: That the basis of all work here - including oxps - was the Open Source CC-3 license issued for Oolite itself.

I was not deliberately not asking people, "stealing" stuff, acting in bad faith, or just ignoring wishes of original oxp's makers. I was actually working together/in contact with quite some oxp makers about issues of OE. Most have not spoken up. I fully understand why.

I never wanted to hurt people here and even less intended to. Had my assumption about the CC-3 license been correct, I would have been the one who was treated in bad faith if asked to ask for allowance for something granted by the C-3 license. My error was not to know that this license - according to Ahruman's interpretation, at least - does not cover oxps.

2) I am quite aware of the fact that legally and practically, it would in principle be possible to ramrod the OE concept through whatever if. Guess what? I don't do that - even if it bins two very intense years of work - because I do not want to hurt people and, I have to say, even less this great game. Think about that when next doing your five minutes of hate posting.

3) LittleBear claimed he left here because RS/OSE/OE would overwrite all his work. For such an extreme consequence as leaving the board entirely, and taking his RL profession into account (no secret here he's a lawyer) it's noticable that he didn't get the very fact right that presumably led to him leaving: For half a year now, and quite visible in the "new features" list of the meta-oxp, it was visible that it was explicitly designed to be overwritten by anything else to avoid the issues LB was complaining about!

4) I would have tried to cooperate much more had friendly debates been possible for me. Sometimes they were, and then, quietly, there was cooperation. Sometimes this was not possible, and then there was a hostile atmosphere on both sides that didn't help. It might take two for a quarrel, but it also takes two to make peace again.

Flame on, if you must, create an "evil mythos" about my time here, or leave the sinking ship as is befitting for ... trumbles ... in some cases, but please take the four above statements into account while at it. They are the truth as far as I am aware of it.

L

[drew]

I've already said my piece on this, so no need to repeat myself.

I think it's a damn shame though.

I was a *BIG* fan of OSE as it turned Oolite into much more of the 'Elite' I'd always imagined. I know I can download each individual OXP, but OSE saved me the bother - which was a big deal as far as I was concerned. This leaves me very much the poorer.

A big thanks Lestradae for all the hard work you did put in making it work - and to all the original OXP authors (of which I was one). I will continue to be using OSE 0.71 with my Oolite in the vain hope that someday it does get completed.

Bon voyage, Commander.

Cheers,

Drew.

[Cmdr James]

Flame on, if you must, create an "evil mythos" about my time here

I dont see any evil, either in fact, or in mythos.

I see a misunderstanding, that was not well handled, and allowed to become a situation that forced two of the key figures on the the forum to walk out.

A big shame.

[Thargoid]

... a 900MB download is pretty large, but in this day and age it's less than 30mins by most people's ADSL or suchlike.[/color]

The key point here being "most people's".

I know, you were the specific example I had in mind (at least since Eric upgraded his ISDN).

And if all else fails (and to paraphrase an old quote), don't underestimate the transfer rate of a CD in the post

[Cmdr James]

A CD in the post is not able to carry 900meg. I think this brings home just how huge we are talking about

[Thargoid]

OK, DVD, or couple of CDs

I said I was paraphrasing (given the original quote involved an estate car/station wagon and a boot/trunk full of disks (at that time of the floppy variety)...)