Oolite Bulletins

I tend to spend my time editing the plists to downgrade the performance of certain ships in the interests of balancing, taking into account price, comparable vessels, rarity etc etc.

There is, for me, a point where price becomes meaningless. Cost is irrelevant is a vessel is game breaking.

Sendraks wrote:

I tend to spend my time editing the plists to downgrade the performance of certain ships in the interests of balancing, taking into account price, comparable vessels, rarity etc etc.

There is, for me, a point where price becomes meaningless. Cost is irrelevant if a vessel is game breaking.

Couldn't agree more.

Selezen wrote:

<sigh>

well you will be pleased to hear that the ?v2 i.c. is flying around here quite satisfactorily -- it is cool as a pirate, good at scooping cargo and so far has blasted several BlackMonkGunships, without blowing up itself (because they won't lend me any money, or sell me anything HA! just coz I was a month overdue) -- my interest in other variants derives from a curiosity viz what-is-everyone-going-on-about? when the one I'm flying seems fine..

People, please, can we just peacefully agree to disagree on this one, accept that there are different stiles of playing, envisioning, oxp'ing and experiencing Oolite that are all valid for the people concerned?

Some find that Oolite should have a cap at how far its NPC and player ships should go stats-wise, some don't think that as long as NPCs and players, pirates and police etc. are balanced against each other power-wise, and some consider basically everything that creates ships which are more powerful than the basic shipset as a total conversion.

All of these opinions have a point, and the respective Ooliteers will choose to pick & mix the oxps they want or don't want in their game respectively. To exaggerate the "poles" of the debate a bit, the "purists" will not convince the "total conversionists" and vice versa. Therefore I do see not only no need to debate or even quarrel about that, but no use, too. I assume no one here wants to take away their particular vein of enjoying Oolite from anyone else?

I'm remarking on all this because this here is starting to sound like the beginning of an (old) argument to me, one I find (and found) particularly unnescessary.

These are my 0.2 Cr at least

L

While I agree with what you are saying, I think this is a slightly special case in that the author of an OXP (yes, I know he signed his rights away with the license) wants to stop it circulating in favour of his rewrite.

I think that anyone who wants to keep using ICv1 can do so, no argument, but I also think out of respect for Selezen we should generally avoid ICv1, and point people to ICv2 unless they specifically ask for V1, and that as far as possible we should not bundle v1 in OXP-megapacks.

Thats only my opinion, and due to the licensing arrangements, I dont think this could be enforced, however I think its a reasonable compromise.

Flame on dudes

The beauty of Oolite is that everyone's game and oxp's is personal to them and ultimately if someone chooses to fly a ship with 600cargo capacity, speed of 5.5lm, energy regen of 9 which turns on a dime, then good for them. If they're happy, thats the main thing.

If an individual thinks a ship is OTT, then (presuming the oxp is written in a readily understandble way), you can always go into the OXP and remove it.

See the problem is clean people, players, and pirates all have ships comparable to the IC. But the police are left in the dust in the arms race; a single ship with a cascade missile (admittedly a bit OTT) can destroy an entire fleet.

Also: where, perchance, can I get my hands on a v2 courier?

wackyman465 wrote:

Also: where, perchance, can I get my hands on a v2 courier?

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Imperi ... 8Oolite%29 I think?

Like all greatness: The Wiki!!!
http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Imperi ... r_(Oolite)

EDIT:
James' link works. He ran into the same problem I did. LOL.

Cmdr James wrote:

While I agree with what you are saying, I think this is a slightly special case in that the author of an OXP (yes, I know he signed his rights away with the license) wants to stop it circulating in favour of his rewrite ... I also think out of respect for Selezen we should generally avoid ICv1, and point people to ICv2 unless they specifically ask for V1, and that as far as possible we should not bundle v1 in OXP-megapacks.

As this is obviously of high enough importance to Selezen to restart this debate for the I think third time in 1 1/2 years (sorry, I don't understand it, but then I don't have to ) I have thought about a solution for this and I think I have come up with one.

I will create a new ship with a new ship model and a new name that has the same player ship key as the "old" "v1" Imperial Courier, and has the exact same stats as the old IC, so that the whole thing stays backwards compatible and ICv1/RS players don't suddenly lose their ship when upgrading.

That way, Selezen's old version is gone once and for all, and ICv1 players still have a ship with the same specs.

Does that sound acceptable to everyone, including you, Selezen?

I want to mention that when someone asks me to update their ships or merged oxp inside RS/OSE that I always do this if backwards compatibility stays possible. The compatibility issue is and was the singular and only reason why I was being that stubborn concerning the IC issue.

I also want to mention that, as Cmdr James said, if someone publishes something under the CC license then the condition for its use is that it can be used in derivative products, as RS/OSE is a derivative product of, amongst others, IC. So please think if you can live with what you publish, first.

And: If someone wants something (of their own making!) changed or altered in some reasonable way, I will say yes and do it in 99% of all cases!

OK, now I hope for: Shanti!

L

Good lord, I make a post and suddenly I've started a war!

Look, the thing's open source. You do with it as you please. Just because my preference is that the old "experimental" version be dropped doesn't mean that everyone has to suddenly drop it. It's more to do with my personal embarrassment over how overpowered the data is and how rubbish the model is.

If people still want to use it then to be honest I'm fine with it - just don't expect me to stop cringing when I hear that people are still using what I consider to be a rubbish OXP - it's unbalanced compared to the rest of the game, but if ubergamers want an instant iron ass then fair enough.

The version that ships with RS is different to what I consider "my" work - that's Sauron/Lestradae's own derivative work and he's justified the UBERness of the ship with a stonkingly high price. That's up to him, and is his right thanks to the gift of Open Source and GPL/CC licensing.

Enjoy it if it's your cup of tea, but don't expect me to like it!!

Les: if you could replace the ship model with the V2 model that would be acceptable for the future releases of your beasts. Leave the actual stats as they are so that the ubergamers can still have their toy. Might even be worth a new skin for the "military" version. If that's what the People want, then that's what the People get!

@Selezen:

Selezen wrote:

Les: if you could replace the ship model with the V2 model that would be acceptable for the future releases of your beasts. Leave the actual stats as they are so that the ubergamers can still have their toy. Might even be worth a new skin for the "military" version. If that's what the People want, then that's what the People get!

I will actually do whatever you wish for, after getting the abovementioned idea of how to ensure backwards compatibility for players with the old experimental IC there is no reason for me at all left to be stubborn.

That the new IC model isn't used anyways in RS/OSE is an oversight on my part - I already had that on the to-do list for RS 3.02 but somehow overlooked it before release

So whatever you want is fine with me. If you want it out bad and absolutely don't like it, I replace it with a new ship same stats players keep ship. If you are OK with leaving it in but replace the model I replace the model and leave it in. <sauronic laughter on> If you produce a new skin for the "IC Mk II" I would feel honoured and put it to good use immediately <sauronic laughter off>

On a serious note, I'm really sorry that this has caused you some embarrasment and unhappiness. I guess we just got off the wrong foot with this one. Will try to be more creative and less stubborn with things like that in the future.

Concerning if its "uber" or not we will probably have to agree to disagree. In vanilla Oolite or even in Oolite with most of the original ship oxps in I agree that the old IC would be massively overpowered.

But in final OSE there are going to be ships (including NPC ships) that can splat the old IC on their windscreen. They are justified in my eyes because a) they have a truly horrifying pricetag, which you have to earn over a very long real-time game history, b) it will be a little quest in itself to find the best of them, c) trader, pirates, police and military will have them too (so you are not in a "win all" situation with an old IC at all), and d) when you have acquired the resources to buy and fly such an uber ship, you will probably already be ELITE and have done most or all missions the current game has to offer.

Hoping that we can sort this topic out once and for all here

L

Lestradae wrote:

But in final OSE there are going to be ships (including NPC ships) that can splat the old IC on their windscreen. They are justified in my eyes because a) they have a truly horrifying pricetag, which you have to earn over a very long real-time game history, b) it will be a little quest in itself to find the best of them, c) trader, pirates, police and military will have them too (so you are not in a "win all" situation with an old IC at all), and d) when you have acquired the resources to buy and fly such an uber ship, you will probably already be ELITE and have done most or all missions the current game has to offer.

This sounds awesome, especially having little quests to obtain some of the ships.