For information and discussion about Oolite.
https://bb.oolite.space/
Hmm, yes it doesn’t look quite right, on reflection. I’ll rerun the process and check. I may have had a bug in my process that I fixed later, but was still present in the data I posted.Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:43 pmYour table does not look quite right to me. There seems to be too little variation. There are only ever 10TC of food on sale? Never 9 or 11? Not to mention 5 or 15? et cetera...
Other than for immersion's sake. Seeing 800 units of food on offer does a couple of things (a) it reinforces how big the station is; (b) it reminds us there might be other traders in the universe. Both of those things can add to immersion.
Which may lead us to abandoning the market_definition method, and taking a new approach with a market script. We'll see how far we can get.Switeck wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:55 pmI agree that so long as Hathor's prices aren't lower than found at a Poor Agri. then profitability wouldn't be so great...but this is easier said than done!
price_adder, price_multiplier, price_randomiser are all based off the main station in-system, not Poor Agri. prices.
I just reran Galaxy 1, and got almost the same answer. And I double-checked my code, and confirmed it's working as intended. For this run, across Gal 1, in all Poor Industrial systems, there was always 10 units of food for sale, and possibly as much as 11. So, with the other run I did, from which I created the table shown previously, I never hit an poor industrial system with 11. They were always 10. Hang on while I run the process one more time...Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:43 pmYour table does not look quite right to me. There seems to be too little variation. There are only ever 10TC of food on sale? Never 9 or 11? Not to mention 5 or 15? et cetera...
You can only buy a small portion of the total cargo on the station, not because the rest isn't for sale but to keep a single ship or small group of ships from cornering the market. 1 full Anaconda dumping off here only replenishes enough for a handful of smaller freighters...which gets into the question of why an Anaconda would unload here in the first place if the prices are unfavorable to do so?
Just tried your fix again with:phkb wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 9:14 pmI thought I fixed this?Cholmondely wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:00 pm1) Is it actually possible to "fix" SW Economy so that the markets of the so-called mining systems actually act as such (rather than as agriculturals with zero quantities of agricultural commodities but with low prices for them)?
agri_quantity_reductor: 6, // increase this value to remove more agri-related goods (1.5 = 2/3rds of original, 2 = half original, 3 = 1/3rd of original, 4 = 1/4th of original) Then the issues are a bit deeper than we thought, and will require a different approach to solving.Cholmondely wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:41 pmThe agri goods are still far too cheap for there to be any point in selling goods from a real agri world there - so no "third trading pole" yet exists.
Rock Hermits should almost be trying to throw Minerals away, (maybe half price?) because those are low-value and bulky TC capacities instead of kg or g like Gold/Plat/Gems. Keep in mind the main station in-system usually won't buy more than 50-80 TC of Minerals due to already having way too much for sale. Industrial systems should be using Minerals like crazy and not have as much for sale at the main station...but they do too! It's enough of a problem for there to be multiple OXZs to alter Minerals amounts for sale.
I disagree about needing very high prices for stuff they want, with minor exceptions for Food and Liquor/Wines as those are consumed constantly rather than occasionally. On the assumption you're already going to one of these stations to load up on mined stuff, carrying stuff to sell is not a big deal besides knowing how much Dredgers and Rock Hermits will buy. So instead the prices for what they need only has to be a couple credits more than the main station. Food might be 2-5 credits more and Liq/Wines might be 5-10 credits more -- although the price difference can be greater so long as the max they want is low enough to not be "money for nothing".They should want to buy Food, Textiles, Liquor/Wines, Luxuries, Narcotics, Computers, and Machinery at very high prices.
To force a commodity to 0 for sale, use these modifiers:None of these items that they want to buy should be for sale at these Markets.
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"quantity_multiplier" = 0;
"quantity_randomiser" = 0;
"quantity_adder" = 0;Yes, we cannot consider changes on 1 station in a vacuum, we also have to determine how each extra station fits with the rest of the Ooniverse.One problem that cropped up was too many Pirate Coves being spawned which prevented me from getting accurate information on the other types of Rock Hermits. This lead to the spawn rate for Pirate Coves having to be lowered in that OXZ. When you are trying to get something to work properly within a mix of 300+ OXZs without there being any conflicts you do tend to run into a cascade effect. A change to one influences many others. It will all work out eventually but might take a long time to get just right.
Sounds like an excellent oxp to publish, if it were doable without too much work.Switeck wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:24 amRock Hermits should almost be trying to throw Minerals away, (maybe half price?) because those are low-value and bulky TC capacities instead of kg or g like Gold/Plat/Gems. Keep in mind the main station in-system usually won't buy more than 50-80 TC of Minerals due to already having way too much for sale. Industrial systems should be using Minerals like crazy and not have as much for sale at the main station...but they do too! It's enough of a problem for there to be multiple OXZs to alter Minerals amounts for sale.
Radioactives and Alloys should probably be rarer than Minerals, since most random asteroids/boulders/splinters do not contain much suitable material to turn into either.
Gold, Platinum, and Gem-Stones long ago had a bug in their logic which caused amount for sale to flip over to 0 often. More recent Oolite versions just assumed low amounts were "normal".I disagree about needing very high prices for stuff they want, with minor exceptions for Food and Liquor/Wines as those are consumed constantly rather than occasionally. On the assumption you're already going to one of these stations to load up on mined stuff, carrying stuff to sell is not a big deal besides knowing how much Dredgers and Rock Hermits will buy. So instead the prices for what they need only has to be a couple credits more than the main station. Food might be 2-5 credits more and Liq/Wines might be 5-10 credits more -- although the price difference can be greater so long as the max they want is low enough to not be "money for nothing".They should want to buy Food, Textiles, Liquor/Wines, Luxuries, Narcotics, Computers, and Machinery at very high prices.To force a commodity to 0 for sale, use these modifiers:None of these items that they want to buy should be for sale at these Markets.
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"quantity_multiplier" = 0; "quantity_randomiser" = 0; "quantity_adder" = 0;Yes, we cannot consider changes on 1 station in a vacuum, we also have to determine how each extra station fits with the rest of the Ooniverse.One problem that cropped up was too many Pirate Coves being spawned which prevented me from getting accurate information on the other types of Rock Hermits. This lead to the spawn rate for Pirate Coves having to be lowered in that OXZ. When you are trying to get something to work properly within a mix of 300+ OXZs without there being any conflicts you do tend to run into a cascade effect. A change to one influences many others. It will all work out eventually but might take a long time to get just right.
Station exclusions is something I started doing to avoid too many 3rd party stations in a TL 13-15 Rich Ind. system.
But it grew to having a secondary purpose -- spreading the increasing number of 3rd party stations around further, so I didn't need to reuse the same 3rd party station as much.
Some stations (like Nuit, which I repurposed partially as a Dictatorship's supreme leader's palace) I placed in only a couple Galactic Charts.
My goal is to give most systems 1 "specialty" station (beyond the 1-4 Rock Hermits it likely already has somewhere) to make each system a tiny bit special.
Anarchies (and Random Hits), Commies!, Dictators/Imperial Astrofactory, FeudalStates (Feudal gov.), and Free Trade Zone (Multigov.) OXZs help to make their respective gov. type systems "interesting", so we can consider those system types at least mostly "covered" with extra stations.
The middle economy types can be the most interesting station-wise, because they might have the tech to build and use a Biosphere to support their growing heavy space industries.
And/or they might have an industrial-type station such as SIRF shipyards or Salvage Gang (from Anarchies OXZ).
Considering extra stations tended to only be manufactured in higher TL systems or be affordable in richer systems, this meant that Poor Agri. systems tended to get left out.
At the poorest low-tech systems, even the main station was only a repurposed Rock Hermit station.
That leaves Confederacy, Democracy, and Corporate State systems needing extra stations...
Which can be covered by all the stations that tend to be found in "safer" systems.
This matters for market fixes and reworks because when there's multiple stations in 1 system in close proximity, it's pretty safe and cheap to hop between them and use price differences for quick profit.
That means most of the commodity prices should not deviate far from the main station prices to avoid "free money" balance issues.
A partial way to avoid this problem is by making smaller stations only sell or buy a subset of trade goods, which are suitable to the station's purpose.
For instance, Hoopy Casinos might only be buying/selling tiny quantities of Gold, Platinum, and Gems (and Furs?)...and buying even smaller amounts of food and Liq/Wines?
Another way is due to plot reasons the other secondary stations can be far apart, so even if there's considerable profit to be made from visiting them it's time-consuming to do and with possible pirate ambushes along the way. Free Trade Zone comes to mind on that note.
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// *************************************************
// * H A T H O R *
// *************************************************
{
"hathor_template" = {
is_template = yes;
condition_script = "hathor_conditions.js";
ai_type = "stationAI.plist";
auto_ai = yes;
aft_eject_position = "0.0 13.0 0.0";
beacon = "TSBEACON";
energy_recharge_rate = 40;
frangible = "false";
has_ecm = "true";
heat_insulation = 5;
market_monitored = yes;
market_capacity = 256; // we're giving this station a big capacity
max_energy = 20000;
model = "2xhath.dat";
name = "Hathor Station";
roles = "station(0) KW_hathor";
subentities = (
... list of subentities, trimmed for brevity ...
);
shaders = {
... shader definitions, trimmed for brevity ...
};
smooth = "false";
thrust = 50;
};
"hathor_mainly_ag" = {
like_ship = "hathor_template";
market_definition = (
{
type = "good";
name = "food";
price_multiplier = 0.6;
quantity_multiplier = 5;
},
{
type = "good";
name = "textiles";
price_multiplier = 0.7;
quantity_multiplier = 2.0;
},
{
type = "good";
name = "liquor_wines";
price_multiplier = 0.85;
quantity_multiplier = 2.0;
},
{
type = "default";
quantity_multiplier = 0.0; // no other products
},
);
};
"hathor_rich_ag" = {
like_ship = "hathor_template";
market_definition = (
{
type = "good";
name = "food";
price_multiplier = 0.7;
quantity_multiplier = 5;
},
{
type = "good";
name = "textiles";
price_multiplier = 0.75;
quantity_multiplier = 2.0;
},
{
type = "good";
name = "liquor_wines";
price_multiplier = 0.88;
quantity_multiplier = 2.0;
},
{
type = "default";
quantity_multiplier = 0.0; // no other products
},
);
};
"hathor_average_ag" = {
like_ship = "hathor_template";
market_definition = (
{
type = "good";
name = "food";
price_multiplier = 0.8;
quantity_multiplier = 5;
},
{
type = "good";
name = "textiles";
price_multiplier = 0.8;
quantity_multiplier = 2.0;
},
{
type = "good";
name = "liquor_wines";
price_multiplier = 0.91;
quantity_multiplier = 2.0;
},
{
type = "default";
quantity_multiplier = 0.0; // no other products
},
);
};
... sub-entities after this point ...
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"use strict";
this.name = "Hathor_Conditions";
this.author = "phkb";
this.copyright = "2023 phkb";
this.description = "Condition script for ships.";
this.license = "CC BY-NC-SA 3.0";
this.allowSpawnShip = function (shipKey) {
if (shipKey === "hathor_mainly_ag" && system.info.economy == 4) return true;
if (shipKey === "hathor_rich_ag" && system.info.economy == 5) return true;
if (shipKey === "hathor_average_ag" && system.info.economy == 6) return true;
return false;
}
The problem is that what I've made is an extremely small OXP, basically a single script.js file, that decides the fate of millions...I mean decides what stations to spawn in a system.Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:45 amSounds like an excellent oxp to publish, if it were doable without too much work.
But I presume that each individual dockable oxp has been individually tweaked, so that collecting everything into a shipdataoverrides.plist would prove a significant pain in the unmentionables.
I find it profoundly impressive how people like you have tweaked the oxps to create such individual Ooniverses.
I'm going to dissect the market screenshot.phkb wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:16 am
As you can see, bargain basement prices on food, with lots available, some tempting prices on textiles, as well as on Liquor/Wines. And nothing else for sale at the moment, with all the other prices matching the main station. We can look at those items next time.
Some other items that could be for sale is mining stuff -- Minerals, Gold, Platinum, and Gemstones.phkb wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:16 amAs you can see, bargain basement prices on food, with lots available, some tempting prices on textiles, as well as on Liquor/Wines. And nothing else for sale at the moment, with all the other prices matching the main station. We can look at those items next time.
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{
"type" = "good";
"name" = "radioactives";
"quantity_multiplier" = 0.2;
"quantity_randomiser" = 0.2;
},
{
"type" = "good";
"name" = "alloys";
"quantity_multiplier" = 0.3;
"quantity_randomiser" = 0.4;
},
{
"type" = "good";
"name" = "minerals";
"quantity_multiplier" = 0.4;
"quantity_randomiser" = 0.5;
},
{
"type" = "good";
"name" = "gold";
"quantity_multiplier" = 0.3;
"quantity_randomiser" = 0.4;
},
{
"type" = "good";
"name" = "platinum";
"quantity_multiplier" = 0.25;
"quantity_randomiser" = 0.3;
},
{
"type" = "good";
"name" = "gem_stones";
"quantity_multiplier" = 0.2;
"quantity_randomiser" = 0.2;
},
{
// fencing stolen goods?
"type" = "default";
"quantity_multiplier" = 0.1;
"quantity_randomiser" = 0.2;
}