Oolite Bulletins

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:45 pm**

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:39 pm
1) So if an .oxp is loaded in the Managed AddOns folder it will load first? Or does it need to be an .oxz?

2) And not for now (we're onto markets), but I don't see your natty images on my Mac. Just as I don't see Cim's images from his ship's manual on my mac. (I did see his images on my windows before the keyboard discombobulated and it gave up the ghost).

If you look at your log you will see that Oolite is loading oxz before oxp. As spara is stating absolute correctly beside Windows the alphabetic order is irrelevant. To override an oxz an oxp is a good solution, it will load later and therefore override any oxz.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:54 pm**

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:02 am
Are there larger versions of the trade route maps (c.200Kb each) from the SothisTC.oxp which I could use in the wiki?

OFF TOPIC
Try phkb's HTML GALACTIC MAPS. Download everything at that Box Page and open it in your browser of choice by clicking on the OoliteGalaxyMaps.html page. It should be MAC compatible since it is written in HTML 5 like most web pages are these days. This is a very comprehensive set of maps so you may not need to convert them to Wiki pages (unless you really want to) but simply make the general populace more aware of their existence so they can be downloaded for their own use. The note taking feature of these maps can be especially useful.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:24 pm**

Nite Owl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:54 pm

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:02 am
Are there larger versions of the trade route maps (c.200Kb each) from the SothisTC.oxp which I could use in the wiki?
OFF TOPIC
Try phkb's HTML GALACTIC MAPS. Download everything at that Box Page and open it in your browser of choice by clicking on the OoliteGalaxyMaps.html page. It should be MAC compatible since it is written in HTML 5 like most web pages are these days. This is a very comprehensive set of maps so you may not need to convert them to Wiki pages (unless you really want to) but simply make the general populace more aware of their existence so they can be downloaded for their own use. The note taking feature of these maps can be especially useful.

OFF TOPIC
I've got them. And yes, as you say, they are excellent and highly useful. The problem is, as far as I can tell, each trade route is shown one at a time only. I'm after something which shows all 4 trade routes on the same map. I don't yet have the prestidigitatory expertise yet to combine the four. Although, hopefully, by the time Spara finishes with me ...

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:31 pm**

ON TOPIC

Just thinking. Sothis (appearing almost entirely at Corporate states, New Cargoes advantages, backstory etc) is obviously highly commercial. Surely in the case of major differences in stock from the main orbital station, there will be a reflection of this is market price? So if the Sothis market is virtually empty, and the main orbital's is well stocked, might one not expect a small upwards tick in the price for that commodity at Sothis? And vice-versa, of course? This of course only makes sense if the Sothis market capacity is large like that of the main orbital station.

Or are the major players at Sothis also represented at the main orbital and thus unwilling to entertain market differentials for reasons of overall profit?

Off to tweak!

Oh! ... and what the dickens is a nestmarket? I can find nary a trace on either the wiki or here on the BB.

Ooh! ... and what happens with markets with more than 127 units? When I've encountered them, I was never able to sell in to them. Is this a hard-coded issue, or is it tweakable?

Oooh! ... and if I wanted to make market capacity depend on the size of the station, could this presumably be done by another "over-ride" .oxp like this one? I presume that Redspear's weapon laws is another "over-ride" .oxp.

Posted: **Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:28 pm**

spara wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:19 pm
Let's fix the market (F8)

<snip>

After this the market should be "alive" and should offer some selling opportunities. The market is very limited and can naturally be tweaked in any manner. I'm happy to help in tweaking the market to better suit the narrative.

Market fixed & breathing - thnx!

I'm curious about the other commented-out line in Sothis.oxp's shiplist definition, 'defense_ship_role'; what happens with 'max_defense_ships = 26' in this case?

As for the narrative, I wondered if a massive station with specific focus on business & trade would attract 'peripheral' activities - convention centers, bars/restaurants, duty-free shopping precincts, brothels.. might there be scope for further trade in certain luxury items? Some perfectly lawful, others perhaps not-so-lawful? Maybe some of our cashed-up executive types have morals inversely proportional to their expense accounts.. 8~)

cheers!

Posted: **Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:25 am**

andrax_iON wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:28 pm

spara wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:19 pm
Let's fix the market (F8)

<snip>

After this the market should be "alive" and should offer some selling opportunities. The market is very limited and can naturally be tweaked in any manner. I'm happy to help in tweaking the market to better suit the narrative.
Market fixed & breathing - thnx!

I'm curious about the other commented-out line in Sothis.oxp's shiplist definition, 'defense_ship_role'; what happens with 'max_defense_ships = 26' in this case?

As for the narrative, I wondered if a massive station with specific focus on business & trade would attract 'peripheral' activities - convention centers, bars/restaurants, duty-free shopping precincts, brothels.. might there be scope for further trade in certain luxury items? Some perfectly lawful, others perhaps not-so-lawful? Maybe some of our cashed-up executive types have morals inversely proportional to their expense accounts.. 8~)

cheers!

If one reads widely enough in the wiki & BB threads, the overall impression is that corporate states and morality don't mix too well.

Posted: **Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:49 am**

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:31 pm
Oh! ... and what the dickens is a nestmarket? I can find nary a trace on either the wiki or here on the BB.

Nestmarket is the internal name of the special market defined for Wasps.oxp. The old style and non functional definition of the market can be found from the commodities.plist of the Wasps.oxp. Most notably Food is named to Jam

.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:31 pm
Ooh! ... and what happens with markets with more than 127 units? When I've encountered them, I was never able to sell in to them. Is this a hard-coded issue, or is it tweakable?

I don't think this is limited. I have to check it out, when I get back to my rig.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:31 pm
Oooh! ... and if I wanted to make market capacity depend on the size of the station, could this presumably be done by another "over-ride" .oxp like this one? I presume that Redspear's weapon laws is another "over-ride" .oxp.

Possible with a market_script. You would need to override the ones you want attach it to. If there already is a market_script defined to a station, then it would be overwritten, which is not preferable. You would need to be very careful with this one and heavily limit it to specific stations.

andrax_iON wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:28 pm
I'm curious about the other commented-out line in Sothis.oxp's shiplist definition, 'defense_ship_role'; what happens with 'max_defense_ships = 26' in this case?

These deal with station defenses/guards. Default role is police/interceptor. If you want to create some special guards for the station, this allows you to use them instead of the default guards. For example stations in YAH! have special guards with special liveries. Max_defense_ships defines the number of guards in the station. The shipdata.plist in the original Sothis is a bit of a mess and I assume these are residuals from the Wasps.oxp, which has obviously been used as a base for the shipdata.plist. 26 defense ships is quite a lot and needs to be toned down. It would make sense if the guards were wasps though.

Posted: **Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:33 am**

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:25 am
If one reads widely enough in the wiki & BB threads, the overall impression is that corporate states and morality don't mix too well.

Excellent! The phrase "wild, swingin' Sothis soirees" ran thru my mind briefly, dunno why. Think we're gonna need a whole lot o' catnip & megaweed..

spara wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:49 am
These deal with station defenses/guards. Default role is police/interceptor. If you want to create some special guards for the station, this allows you to use them instead of the default guards. For example stations in YAH! have special guards with special liveries. Max_defense_ships defines the number of guards in the station. The shipdata.plist in the original Sothis is a bit of a mess and I assume these are residuals from the Wasps.oxp, which has obviously been used as a base for the shipdata.plist. 26 defense ships is quite a lot and needs to be toned down. It would make sense if the guards were wasps though.

I caught up with much of this thru the wiki - sorry, next time I'll think first & do the research 8~/

I _do_ like the idea of a fleet of Troompers, at the ready to defend the station; agreed that 26 is a bit over the top! Part of my curiosity was based on a fit of childish pique during testing - rather than face the embarrassment of trying to dock without use of a joystick, I opened fire on the TC with my fearsome pulse laser, expecting a horde of angry Vipers to whup my tinfoil @ss - nothin' happened, so I rammed the station in a further fit of childish pique. I've now gifted that Jameson a docking computer..

cheers!

Posted: **Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:47 am**

andrax_iON wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:33 am

... rather than face the embarrassment of trying to dock without use of a joystick, I opened fire on the TC with my fearsome pulse laser, expecting a horde of angry Vipers to whup my tinfoil @ss - nothin' happened, so I rammed the station in a further fit of childish pique. I've now gifted that Jameson a docking computer ...

OFF TOPIC

Thanking you sir! You have just done wonders for the old ego! I may be useless at combat. I may be unable to even fly in SOTL. And my autonomous attempts on the dark side have so far met with abject failure. But at least I can dock using a keyboard!

Useless I may be. Utterly useless I am not! (Not yet ...)

Posted: **Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:42 am**

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:25 am
... the overall impression is that corporate states and morality don't mix too well.

Pretty much the same holds true in the real world.

Useless I may be. Utterly useless I am not!

Posted: **Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:04 pm**

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:31 pm
Ooh! ... and what happens with markets with more than 127 units? When I've encountered them, I was never able to sell in to them. Is this a hard-coded issue, or is it tweakable?

I can't reproduce this. I changed SothisTC's market_capacity to 300, quantity_multiplier to 2 and quantity_randomiser to 0. As a result there were 212 t of Computers on sale. I then gave myself 10 t of computers and was able to sell them. You can give yourself cargo using the debug console:

Code: Select all

PS.manifest.computers+=10;

Posted: **Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:55 pm**

spara wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:04 pm
Cholmondely wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:31 pm
Ooh! ... and what happens with markets with more than 127 units? When I've encountered them, I was never able to sell in to them. Is this a hard-coded issue, or is it tweakable?
I can't reproduce this. I changed SothisTC's market_capacity to 300, quantity_multiplier to 2 and quantity_randomiser to 0. As a result there were 212 t of Computers on sale. I then gave myself 10 t of computers and was able to sell them. You can give yourself cargo using the debug console:
Code: Select all
PS.manifest.computers+=10;

It was half a year ago, in v.1.88, probably with Stranger's World chugging along in the background.

By the way, interesting article in last Friday's Economist magazine (UK) about Finnish school leavers and their limited options re getting into university.

Posted: **Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:58 pm**

Tweaked, market differences observed, saved.

Questions:

1) Is there any difference if the market code is inside or outside the brackets with the rest of the Sothis description? I tried both tweaks, and there seemed no difference, but is this really so?

Inside

Code: Select all

{
	//  *************************************************
//  *            S   O   T   H   I   S              *
//  *************************************************

"sothis_station" = 
	{
	hasShipyard = 0;
	name = "Sothis Trade Center";
	requires_docking_clearance = yes;
	station_roll = 0.18;
	roles = "sothis station commodityMarkets_station"; 
	
	market_capacity = 15;    // <- pasted inside closing bracket of sothis_station code
        market_definition = (
	{
		"type" = "class";
		"name" = "oolite-business";
		"price_multiplier" = 1.2;
		"price_randomiser" = 0.3;
		"quantity_multiplier" = 0.7;
		"quantity_randomiser" = 0.2;
	}, 			
	{
		"type" = "default";
		"capacity" = 0;
	}
      );

market_monitored = yes;
};                                                                       // <- closing bracket of sothis_station code

"kw_buoy" =
	{
	name = "Sothis Buoy";
	}
}

Outside

Code: Select all

{
	//  *************************************************
//  *            S   O   T   H   I   S              *
//  *************************************************

"sothis_station" = 
	{
	hasShipyard = 0;
	name = "Sothis Trade Center";
	requires_docking_clearance = yes;
	station_roll = 0.18;
	roles = "sothis station commodityMarkets_station"; 
	};
	
	market_capacity = 15;  // <- pasted outside bracket on line above
market_definition = (
	{
		"type" = "class";
		"name" = "oolite-business";
		"price_multiplier" = 1.2;
		"price_randomiser" = 0.3;
		"quantity_multiplier" = 0.7;
		"quantity_randomiser" = 0.2;
	}, 			
	{
		"type" = "default";
		"capacity" = 0;
	}
);
market_monitored = yes;


"kw_buoy" =
	{
	name = "Sothis Buoy";
	}
}

2) To my chagrin, when I restarted the game I was parked inside the Main Orbital at Zaonce. I'm sure that I'd saved at the Sothis, but, well, old age, dying brain cells, etc., etc.

Convinced that I was at the Sothis, I looked in vain for market differences. Found none. BUT: I was getting free access to New Cargoes' Tradernet! When I eventually checked the In-systems Distances on F4 I discovered my error (I'd also loaded Market Observer & Market Inquirer - as well as FPO Zaonce - goodness, doesn't that make a huge difference to both the views and the F7 screen!).

Any idea as to why the Tradernet access? Had I really saved at the Sothis and my mucking about with the oxp folders in the interim caused a convulsion in the corpus collosum of the Ooniverse (ousting me from Sothis but retaining Tradernet privileges)? Something else?

Edit: Forgot to mention that
i) the Tradernet access might have been linked to a mysterious Tradernet subsciption mentioned on the F5 pages.
ii) the market differences did not seem to feature reduced supplies of the goods, which appeared of a similar order of magnitude to those available at the Main Orbital Station (eg 43 computers & 68.0₢ versus Sothis's 42 computers @ 69.7₢).

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:23 am**

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:58 pm
Any idea as to why the Tradernet access? Had I really saved at the Sothis and my mucking about with the oxp folders in the interim caused a convulsion in the corpus collosum of the Ooniverse (ousting me from Sothis but retaining Tradernet privileges)? Something else?

I've no issue with spawning at the TC on game load, but I lose access to 'Speciality Cargo' in the F4 screen; F3 includes an option to renew subscription to TraderNet, F5 confirms current access & if I launch / re-dock, the welcome screen appears as expected & SpecCargo is restored to F4. Repeated a number of times, it seems consistent; nothing of note in the logs, same behaviour with or without some eye candy (HUD/Ambience) OXPs included.

Fast docking is not enabled? Maybe a consideration re playability..

cheers

Posted: **Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:45 am**

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:58 pm
1) Is there any difference if the market code is inside or outside the brackets with the rest of the Sothis description? I tried both tweaks, and there seemed no difference, but is this really so?

It should definitely need to be inside the brackets. If it doesn't make any difference, then it's possible that's because it's not doing anything visible even when it does run. I think the most likely explanation is that for stations expected to be reloaded with a deterministic populator, the market data is saved too - so if you want to test a market change, you'll need to leave the system and come back to regenerate the market contents (or edit your saved game to delete the "station_markets" key)

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:58 pm
2) To my chagrin, when I restarted the game I was parked inside the Main Orbital at Zaonce. I'm sure that I'd saved at the Sothis, but, well, old age, dying brain cells, etc., etc.

That could happen if after running the populator the Sothis isn't where it's expected to be.

Box doesn't seem to be letting me download the Sothis_TC files at the moment, so I don't know exactly what's happening with the populator there and if there's something which might cause it to be in a slightly different place. (Though a drift of less than a kilometre would be "close enough" for it to use it)

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