Oolite Bulletins

Keep going, gentlemen.. this is the first halfway decent proposal towards solving what is admittedly a weak point in the game, that I've seen in a long time, if ever. One worth exploring, IMO.

Disembodied wrote:

It is an exploit. It means that I, as a new commander, can take any route I want, and trade with any system that I want. That's something which, I think, should be fought for, and earned, not automatically available to anyone. Going off-lane could remain a viable way to avoid traffic in a safe system; but being able to be perfectly safe in an Anarchy is clearly cockeyed.

I have to disagree with you on this one Disembodied (and that doesn't happen very often!). I cannot see the ablity to fly my spacecraft off-lane is an exploit. Yes, there are implications to doing so, and some of them could be seen as negative by some people, but choosing one route over another (for whatever reason) is not an exploit, it is a tactic. I agree that an Anarchy should be more dangerous both on and off lane, and that is easy to address by tweaking the populator mechanisms.
The problem that you see is (I think) that by going off-lane, newcomers in particular are able to avoid problems and therefore bypass an important element of the game. This is true. So can experienced players, and indeed these experienced players have for years been urging newbies to avoid the lanes to start with, for this very reason. Indeed, this tactic has become a part of the game itself, so how come it's suddenly so bad?
Also, am I not right in thinking that recently the lanes have been widened considerably specifically to add more NPC traffic in those areas that an off-lane jockey might be using? And also the station aegis has become a lot less safe (aegis raiders), so even a ship which has avoided the lanes for much of the journey in could still hit trouble towards the end. Maybe these elements could be looked at further to help.

Smivs wrote:

... am I not right in thinking that recently the lanes have been widened considerably [snip] And also the station aegis has become a lot less safe (aegis raiders)...

Yes, I believe the lanes have been widened somewhat. Aegis raiders are very rare, btw - and rightly so.

The thing is, you can't ever fully solve the problem that the game should
a) be fun for the only human player in the Galaxy, which makes realism a difficult thing
b) be not player centric and somewhat realistic.

If a young Jameson indeed has to start from scratch in a new Cobra MKIII with no equipment, flying around in pirate infested systems with a Thargoid war going on, NO SINGLE commander would ever be so stupid and do this, risk his life to earn almost nothing. If you want to take a more realistic approach, maybe the following:

New Jameson goes to flight school. After having learnt something in a combat simulator, pressing SPACE for a couple of times until he is maybe equaling a competent ranking, a bank might eventually be willing to give him a credit. Lets say 500.000Cr, interest rate 10%. Buying an iron assed Cobbie, our pre-trained Jameson has a fair chance now. Interest and need for equipment would be this democracies and almost unobtainable in more dangerous systems.

Make the lower left area of the Galaxy1 a safer zone. Nothing wrong with this. Same ist true here on earth. No handwavium needed. So young Jameson can train himself in moderate conditions. THEN you may deploy pirates everywhere without risking new players to run away frightened. A few less in G1 lower left, a bit more elsewhere, many more in Anarchy.

To avoid this spacelane thing, you can place hordes of ships in a sphere around the withpoint and the station. So the advantage of that spacelane avoidance goes away.

Maybe, taking over an idea from Anno1503, if Jameson is stupid, unlucky, lazy or whatever, if the debt increases beyond a certain value or is not paid back step by step, young Jameson ends in Jail or as a slave. Press Space.

To pay back the credit, one could think about the trade prices. On earth, trading let you earn fortunes. Goods are sold for a price 1000% of the cost of manufacture. In space, risking your life, transfering goods not across countries but across the galaxy earns you 100% maximum, most often less. That's... weird! If you were able to purchase gold in the western part of the galaxy, obtain a contract for gold delivery, how can gold be almost equally cheap in the target system?

Smivs wrote:

I cannot see the ablity to fly my spacecraft off-lane is an exploit.

That's not the exploit: the ability to travel safely from the WP to the station, regardless of what kind of system you're in, is the exploit. It's a hole in the game. It's like having a platform game, where you can choose to take an escalator to the exit if you don't want to go through the hassle of climbing all those ladders and avoiding all those mushrooms (? I've not played a platform game since Donkey Kong, so I'm a little hazy on the details ... ).

Smivs wrote:

The problem that you see is (I think) that by going off-lane, newcomers in particular are able to avoid problems and therefore bypass an important element of the game. This is true. So can experienced players, and indeed these experienced players have for years been urging newbies to avoid the lanes to start with, for this very reason. Indeed, this tactic has become a part of the game itself, so how come it's suddenly so bad?

I know: I've been guilty of this myself, even to the extent of including it as part of Mr Gimlet's advice. It was only after reading a comment by Cim, and thinking about it further myself, that I changed my mind (and deleted it from Mr Gimlet's advice, too). Using a missile to get an enemy to trigger an ECM when you don't have one yourself is a tactic; keeping a stash of pirate kibble is a tactic. There are elements of risk, and calculation, where the player has to weigh up the pros against the cons before deciding what to do. There are no cons to going off-lane apart from the fact that it's uneventful; I don't think it can justifiably be called a tactic.

Smivs wrote:

Also, am I not right in thinking that recently the lanes have been widened considerably specifically to add more NPC traffic in those areas that an off-lane jockey might be using? And also the station aegis has become a lot less safe (aegis raiders), so even a ship which has avoided the lanes for much of the journey in could still hit trouble towards the end. Maybe these elements could be looked at further to help.

I think the devs have indeed been working on widening the lanes and enlarging the volume of in-game activity - all excellent things, from excellent people.

Diziet Sma wrote:

Keep going, gentlemen.. this is the first halfway decent proposal towards solving what is admittedly a weak point in the game, that I've seen in a long time, if ever. One worth exploring, IMO.

It could throw up some interesting possibilities for gameplay, especially if the ASC got damaged (or jammed). It should be possible to play the game as if the Torus would only work on a compass heading, which might give some idea of how it would affect gameplay. Wildeblood's Bullet Drive OXP might help to remind people.

ralph_hh wrote:

The thing is, you can't ever fully solve the problem that the game should
a) be fun for the only human player in the Galaxy, which makes realism a difficult thing
b) be not player centric and somewhat realistic.

I don't want realism. I get enough realism in real life. Fun trumps realism every time, in a game.

ralph_hh wrote:

If a young Jameson indeed has to start from scratch in a new Cobra MKIII with no equipment, flying around in pirate infested systems with a Thargoid war going on, NO SINGLE commander would ever be so stupid and do this, risk his life to earn almost nothing.

It's a pretty silly starting position, right enough, but no sillier than the starting positions of most work-your-way-up games ("I'm on a mission to save the kingdom. I'm armed with a stick and wearing a T-shirt. There's a helpful armourer - who also happens to be one of the people I'm trying to save - but he won't give or even lend me any swords or armour because I don't have enough money."). New commanders should (and can) stay away from pirate-infested systems, fly down the lanes and reach the station without dying quite easily. A better/easier choice of starting system was one of the ideas I think the devs were looking at, but it still requires new players to do the sensible thing and stick to Corporate States and Democracies.

The game's ship prices and economics are crazy, but all game economics are crazy (real economics is crazy: I shopped around for toner cartridges last week and the experience convinced me that capitalism is doomed ). Debt would be a good in-game mechanism but it requires rewriting the craziness from the ground up ...

With that post, I can only agree 100% !

To the other thing...
Space is a huge empty thing. You should be able to circumnavigate trouble then. It makes sense that the action concentrates at the space lanes. But why? Because flying long ways takes fuel and time. Both does not happen in Oolite.

To close this loophole, travel would need to consume both fuel and time. Give the distance WP-Planet a 0.3LY fuel consumption. Also sun-WP. Give the player 0.5LY fuel. If player decides to go off ways, he will end up in nowhere.. bad idea. Maybe there could be a split in hyperdrive / injector fuel and the in-system 0.5LY fuel to avoid trouble like 1) a player is stuck at the WP after 6.8LY jump or 2) a player is able to STILL loophole if he milk runs between two systems jus 1LY apart.

Time consumption would mean the other ships are moving equally fast. Effectively eliminating the Torus drive and introducing a Time Warp Something. By this you also close the loop hole that you can follow ships that burnt injector fuel to escape by simply using the Torus. (This way I hunted down the Constrictor) Contract delivery times and OXP missin times will have to account for the extra time needed.

Disembodied wrote:

...the ability to travel safely from the WP to the station, regardless of what kind of system you're in, is the exploit. It's a hole in the game.

It's not a bug, it's a feature!
I don't think the system type is really relevent here, TBH. Yes an Anarchy should be much more dangerous, but as has been pointed out it is just un-reasonable to ask us to believe that anarchies have thousands of pirates everywhere (which is what would be needed to ensure the player meets a few - this is the problem with space being BIG! And just dumping pirates near the player is a no-no.
But somebody mentioned Thargoids. Now you don't often get Thargoids along the lanes. That is expected. They know that that's where all the ships are and therefore that is where they are more likely to be attacked. It is as true for them as it is for us. However I could happily believe that Thargoids might lurk off-lane looking for unwary lone travellers. They don't want a fight, they are looking for easy pickings. They might need a few subjects for their gruesome vivisections, or perhaps they just fancy a snack. Whatever, a good number of Thargoids off-lane is believable, especially if we believe they have tech which allows them to spot a lone ship from witchspace. They just pop up and grab what they want from time to time. Believable in game, and more importabtly about the only situation where an adversary could be introduced near to the player specifically for this purpose without breaking immersion.

This topic is a classic and maybe one day someone will come up with a solution. Looks like a mission impossible TBH.

Here's one more idea to the discussion. How about making a stray ship (ship that has left a lane) a pirate magnet? Pirates could be equipped with a medium range scanner (5x scanner range perhaps) that would give them information that a lone ship is flying off lane, it's position and it's heading. Then the pirate could try to intersect the ship and mass lock it. If it misses the ship, it returns back to the lane. Organized pirates could also communicate with each other in this kind of situation alerting comrades ahead that loot is coming. Also fresh pirates launched from the planet could try to intersect off lane ships before going to the lane.

Smivs' Thargoid magnet idea is also an interesting one. That's an incentive to stay on lane. Trips to hermits would become quite interesting though.

spara wrote:

Pirates could be equipped with a medium range scanner (5x scanner range perhaps) that would give them information that a lone ship is flying off lane...

Nope! Not unless I can have one as well

I'm fighting Thargoids more than usual recently, because of that native mission in G3. It's ok, but after a while, it get's boring. Shot the 2-3 mother ships, ignore, shoot or collect the drones, then back to business. I prefere variable groups of 3 to 7 made of variable ship types.

Smivs wrote:

spara wrote:

Pirates could be equipped with a medium range scanner (5x scanner range perhaps) that would give them information that a lone ship is flying off lane...

Nope! Not unless I can have one as well

It's a fair deal. You get a Torus drive, they get a medium range scanner .

spara wrote:

It's a fair deal. You get a Torus drive, they get a medium range scanner .

Hmmm. No comment.

What would the do with such scanner if they have no Torus?
You are what? 30x faster? No chance for interceptions.

ralph_hh wrote:

What would the do with such scanner if they have no Torus?
You are what? 30x faster? No chance for interceptions.

That's why pirates ahead should break lane to intercept. Pirates can still be avoided by zig-zagging, but that would at least require some skill from the player.