Re: Split: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:06 pm
Green Knight wrote:Stand and deliver! Your lupins or your life!
Oolite Bulletins
For information and discussion about Oolite.
https://bb.oolite.space/
Split: Difficulty for new players
Page 4 of 21
Re: Split: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:14 pm
At the moment, there is already a 25% chance that pirates go for the loot if you drop a container. The more you dump, the bigger the chance all pirates will end up scooping them. Of cause it needs pirates with free cargo space. A ship like the asp, without cargo bay, won't get distracted. But then, it could never been his intention to get your cargo.Disembodied wrote:Another option is to let pirates demand cargo: "Heave to and drop your cargo!";
Re: Split: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:27 pm
I knew there was a chance ... but I think this could be usefully developed. I can't imagine that currently many players ever use this technique (although I have on occasion snuck away from a group of pirates distracted by the presence of other floating loot). It would need quite a lot of other features to work properly, not least the ability for a pack of pirates to act as a single unit (not much use if two pirates in the gang are willing to let you go, if the psycho in the Asp keeps on attacking you). But the more I think about it, the more this seems at least a partial answer to the problem of newbie survivability - as well as adding a new and interesting set of NPC behaviours to the game.Eric Walch wrote:At the moment, there is already a 25% chance that pirates go for the loot if you drop a container. The more you dump, the bigger the chance all pirates will end up scooping them. Of cause it needs pirates with free cargo space. A ship like the asp, without cargo bay, won't get distracted. But then, it could never been his intention to get your cargo.
Re: Split: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:47 pm
That's fine - you only gotta deal with the psycho in the Asp, while the other two scoop the bait. Like a hardhead, it buys time.Disembodied wrote:... not much use if two pirates in the gang are willing to let you go, if the psycho in the Asp keeps on attacking you...
Re: Split: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:54 pm
I'm thinking that this is more of a tactic for a new pilot to be able to survive a pirate attack, so it has to be able to turn all the attackers in a pack non-hostile. One Asp on its own will do for most Jamesons, I would imagine. For anyone who can hold their end up, though, combat is the thing: three NPCs on one player is decent odds when the player is in a well-equipped ship!El Viejo wrote:That's fine - you only gotta deal with the psycho in the Asp, while the other two scoop the bait. Like a hardhead, it buys time.
With that in mind, it's probably worth considering the makeup of pirate packs. Given that they can't scoop, is there any point in having lone-wolf pirates in Asps? As part of a gang, it makes sense, but on their own - what's the point?
Re: 1.77 for OXPers
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:07 pm
Gets expensive, too. A slightly unlucky run and you can easily use all three missiles on that trick. Don't replace them, and you die on the next run because you're out of counter-measures. Replace them and it probably eats up all your trading profit. All and then some, if you're an actual new player and don't know what the best goods to take from where to where are!El Viejo wrote:Yeah, that does work - sometimes! With the several Jamesons I've started recently for testing, the real killer has been getting jumped by three or four bandits at once, which doesn't always happen - the dice roll again.another_commander wrote:However, we should not forget the tactic of launching one missile at them if they launch one at you, hoping that they will try to ECM it, destroying their own missile in the process.
Which is to say, I don't believe it's just the missiles. It's an open world game, so it can't have the traditional learning curve where things are easier when the player's character is new. But that means the experience of one of us starting a new pilot is really different to someone coming at it cold. I start a new Jameson, and I can trade:
- Zaonce, Isinor, Ensoreus, Isinor, Ensoreus (taking optimal goods each time)
All safe systems, good economic pairings ... I probably now have enough to buy fuel injectors. Right, now I'm safe from most "bad roll of dice" deaths, so long as I stick to the safer systems. If I get attacked on those first few jumps, I can:
- fight well in terms of targeting and evasion, knowing my ship and the weaknesses of the AI inside-out.
- prioritise targets based on their likely threat
- spot pirates based on their scanner signature and disposition without needing to wait until the scanner flashes red and it's too late.
- know the trick with the missiles if things go wrong.
- know how to run; know what I can run from
Sure, there's still bad luck, but I stand a decent chance. I also know that injectors are the best first purchase for survivability since they'll solve virtually all problems so long as you only make short jumps.
For a new player, they've got a ship they can't fly, equipped solely with a weapon they don't know how to use, in a universe they don't know, which either ignores them at best or tries to kill them at worst. They're not just facing potential bad dice rolls; they also have to roll the dice far more times to get the same amount of progress, and a neutral dice roll ends up being bad because they can't recognise the situation in time.
If I run into a pack of six pirates as a Jameson, I'm turning and running pretty much as soon as I get masslocked. Spread them out, lose the slower ones, take them on one at a time and wait for other traders coming inwards and bounty hunters and police going outwards to mix it up.
If a new player runs into that pack, the first warning of danger they'll likely notice is a laser beam bouncing off their hull as several ships move in for the kill, and then it's far too late...
(Which of course the original and sequels solved by having completely safe systems, which is the wrong answer to the problem, but did give you an opportunity to learn things without dying)
Oh, very much so. The AI and populator scripting support changes alone are each substantial tasks, and the rest of it is all mythical until they're in and stable.another_commander wrote:maintaining balance after such changes might be quite challenging and I would consider these changes a long(ish)-term goal.
Re: Split: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:10 pm
Probably not... but I kinda like having the occasional psycho in-game, even as a Jameson.Disembodied wrote:Given that they can't scoop, is there any point in having lone-wolf pirates in Asps?
Re: 1.77 for OXPers
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:24 pm
You'd learn nothing about combat in a safe system - only how to fly your ship, which a Jameson can learn in the safety of the station aegis at Lave (highly recommended for new players). As for the tricks of trading - I tried to act as a real Jameson when testing some new commanders, not doing it the way I would myself (even when first starting out). What to buy and where to sell etc soon become apparent. Ditto with combat - not being tactically aware, just charging in - you soon learn, and dying and trying again is part of the game, yes? It's a harsh Ooniverse out there, sometimes!cim wrote:Which of course the original and sequels solved by having completely safe systems, which is the wrong answer to the problem, but did give you an opportunity to learn things without dying
Re: Split: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:33 pm
The other problem with cargo dumping for a new player is cost. Going Agri->Ind isn't too bad. You're mostly going to be trading Food and Textiles on the first few runs, and dropping a few canisters to distract pilots can work well. Reduces your profit, but you still get something.
Ind->Agri, though, the cheapest profitable good is Machinery. That's at least 50 credits written off for each one you drop, you can probably only buy three or four anyway, and there's a good chance that dropping all of them still won't get all the pirates off your tail even in a small pack. It's probably cheaper and more distracting just to fire missiles at them.
I agree that both pirate and trader behaviour around cargo dumping could be made better, though.
Ind->Agri, though, the cheapest profitable good is Machinery. That's at least 50 credits written off for each one you drop, you can probably only buy three or four anyway, and there's a good chance that dropping all of them still won't get all the pirates off your tail even in a small pack. It's probably cheaper and more distracting just to fire missiles at them.
I agree that both pirate and trader behaviour around cargo dumping could be made better, though.
Not much, no. Of course, they could be a guard for another pack, who are taking out incoming ships to stop them interfering with another operation. Or just trying to boost their own Elite rating.Disembodied wrote:Given that they can't scoop, is there any point in having lone-wolf pirates in Asps?
Re: Split: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:01 pm
True with regard to the cost of goods, especially from an Industrial world to a Agricultural one as you say. But this would be - for beginning players, playing it safe - an emergency tactic when they get an unlucky roll. It's not something that should be done if it's just in the hope of shaking one or two pirates - it would have to be, essentially, the player conforming to the pirates' demands. They tell you to drop your cargo; you eject two or three pods; they maybe demand a bit more, or make some sarcastic comment and order you to clear off (based on the player's Elite ranking maybe? If this could be made visible via the IFF, based on the NPCs' accuracy rating, say, it would offer an explanation as to why pirates might go easier on Jamesons - it might also make combat more interesting for all concerned, and add another tactical element: should I take out the best pilot first? Plus there's the kudos of taking down a Dangerous, Deadly or even Elite bad guy ...).cim wrote:The other problem with cargo dumping for a new player is cost. Going Agri->Ind isn't too bad. You're mostly going to be trading Food and Textiles on the first few runs, and dropping a few canisters to distract pilots can work well. Reduces your profit, but you still get something.
Ind->Agri, though, the cheapest profitable good is Machinery. That's at least 50 credits written off for each one you drop, you can probably only buy three or four anyway, and there's a good chance that dropping all of them still won't get all the pirates off your tail even in a small pack. It's probably cheaper and more distracting just to fire missiles at them.
I agree that both pirate and trader behaviour around cargo dumping could be made better, though.
Re: 1.77 for OXPers
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:57 pm
My demonstration script turns pirates along the trade route in "safer" systems in Galaxy 1 into traders and reduces their bounty to 0-9 credits so Vipers would be less likely to attack them. It does nothing for pirates between sun and planet or deep space pirates outside the space lanes. Escorts of the pirates are unchanged, so you could end up with a pirate-turned-trader getting a 0 credit bounty...having their escorts break away and choose a career of piracy on their own. So pirates can still be there, only more rarely and in far fewer numbers.cim wrote:Which is to say, I don't believe it's just the missiles. It's an open world game, so it can't have the traditional learning curve where things are easier when the player's character is new. But that means the experience of one of us starting a new pilot is really different to someone coming at it cold. I start a new Jameson, and I can trade:
- Zaonce, Isinor, Ensoreus, Isinor, Ensoreus (taking optimal goods each time)
All safe systems, good economic pairings ... I probably now have enough to buy fuel injectors. Right, now I'm safe from most "bad roll of dice" deaths, so long as I stick to the safer systems.
...
For a new player, they've got a ship they can't fly, equipped solely with a weapon they don't know how to use, in a universe they don't know, which either ignores them at best or tries to kill them at worst. They're not just facing potential bad dice rolls; they also have to roll the dice far more times to get the same amount of progress, and a neutral dice roll ends up being bad because they can't recognise the situation in time.
If I run into a pack of six pirates as a Jameson, I'm turning and running pretty much as soon as I get masslocked. Spread them out, lose the slower ones, take them on one at a time and wait for other traders coming inwards and bounty hunters and police going outwards to mix it up.
If a new player runs into that pack, the first warning of danger they'll likely notice is a laser beam bouncing off their hull as several ships move in for the kill, and then it's far too late...
(Which of course the original and sequels solved by having completely safe systems, which is the wrong answer to the problem, but did give you an opportunity to learn things without dying)
Beyond that, there is another factor that reduces piracy in my demonstration script -- it adds a multi-ship trader group to some systems.
In a non-player centric Oolite universe, traders should act in a more rational manner to combat piracy. If pirates are so bad that new players face likely death even in "safer" systems, then likewise so does OTHER traders! At least some traders would organize into convoys of whatever size it takes to reduce piracy to a manageable level. The arms race would continue in anarchy systems, with pirates still having advantage of numbers, but in safer systems pirates would simply not attack large convoys but still prey on lone traders. So this would not be a direct help for new players unless they travel with large convoys.
We've probably been telling new players the wrong "solution" to avoid pirates early on -- that is to avoid the space lane between witchpoint beacon and planet.
My suggestion is on arrival of a new system, head directly AWAY from the planet and witchspace beacon at least until it's off scanner range but still close enough you can see the arrival of other ships around the beacon.
Wait until you've seen a few big freighters arrive with 4 or 6 escorts. They should clear out or at least draw off most pirates in the system along the main shipping lane.
After that (about 10-15 minutes I estimate), follow a freighter + escorts to the main station, but keep it directly in front of you and only barely within your scanner range (about 20-25 km).
It will probably seem incredibly slow and boring, but it should keep you alive.
This will only work in generally "safer" systems with few pirates to begin with -- in anarchy systems, pirates can and will destroy many traders in a row simply due to their superior numbers AND because traders rather run from the pirates (and often die as a result) instead of fighting them.
Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:47 pm
Nah... get right up close, just behind the mother ship (2km or less). When bandits attack, go fight with the escorts!Switeck wrote:... follow a freighter + escorts to the main station, but keep it directly in front of you and only barely within your scanner range (about 20-25 km).
Re: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:12 pm
I've tried that, and died horribly basically every time.El Viejo wrote:Nah... get right up close, just behind the mother ship (2km or less). When bandits attack, go fight with the escorts!Switeck wrote:... follow a freighter + escorts to the main station, but keep it directly in front of you and only barely within your scanner range (about 20-25 km).
The moment you hit a baddie, the whole pirate group often turns to attack you...ignoring at least for awhile the pathetic fire they're receiving from the freighter and escorts.
Or... Death by missile.
If I follow from close to the freighter, pirates often attack me in preference over attacking other traders. Once again, player-centric universe in action in Oolite.
Re: Difficulty for new players
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:19 pm
It works for me... either way, it is a good gambit for a Jameson. As is waiting at Lave for a convoy and hitching a ride.Switeck wrote:I've tried that, and died horribly basically every time.
Re: 1.77 for OXPers
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:23 am
I am doing a Random Hits mission against a target in an Iguana. It is a level 3 mark with front and aft military lasers. I am in no way able to kill it. My shields are draining far to fast. I fly in a BCC with maximum shielding and energy from the core game. (No cheating with oxp equipment).cim wrote:Combat balance is tricky, and so much potentially affects it, so it doesn't surprise me that it's not right.
What are the pirates flying? Specifically, are you using OXPs which routinely give pirates military lasers? The NPC versions of those weapons have been upgraded in 1.77 to match the player spec, which makes them more deadly on the initial attack run (after that they'll have overheated ... unless they have an aft laser too) and a full blast from a military laser will take out most ships.
Normally I could kill all RH targets, but the problem now, is with the laser overheat. In the past, overheat was random and the same for front and aft laser. Now the ship starts with no overheat and can make more blasts at the start of the fight till overheat. Than the laser makes less blasts than before because of the overheating. So far its balanced on average. But, with aft laser, the ship really uses both (nice), and suffers less from overheat than before.
I even managed to shoot off one of its front lasers in my last try, but even than, when approaching, I see my shields drain within a few seconds, without a real change to react. Okay, probably also partly my fault, because I give the marks fixed accuracies. Level 3 ships in RH get an accuracy between -1.8 and 7.8. This particular Iguana has one of 6.1.
Without setting accuracy, all oolite ships get a random value between -5 and 5. But above 5, ships can switch to advanced AI technics, so maybe it was a bad choice to allow > 5 accuracies in RandomHits.
