Oolite Bulletins

Astrobe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:05 pm

So a crew is something you have to have for big ships; not in order to increase its efficiency, but to function correctly. A single pilot cannot drive the ship 24/7 so you need at least a couple of copilots in addition to the commander. You need a couple of mechanics to maintain the engines, and perhaps another couple of people for general ship maintenance. All these people are busy when they are not sleeping, so now you need a cook, someone to cleanup the rooms, change the sheets and someone to do the laundry. They also fall ill or hurt themselves, so you need at least a medic. When your crew becomes big, it has to be split into teams, so now you need managers.

And it all costs credits...

Astrobe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:05 pm

player boredom during masslocks and other downtimes is a recurring issue, in particular for big slow ships.

I solved this, at least to my own satisfaction  Masslock Reimagined

Astrobe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:05 pm

Managing their schedule so that there's always someone to do the job when something happens, including crew members randomly becoming sick (with higher chances if they don't sleep or don't eat enough or the ship is too hot) could be interesting. Crew's happiness (boosted with credits or beer) could also be part of the equation. I would go for a slight bonus (in terms of ship maintenance costs for instance, but in-flight ship properties like e.g. energy regen could be considered) if the player does well, and a slight malus if they don't.

Well that's at the heart of it for me...

Redspear wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:35 pm

Do you/I/we want to play at crew management? Especially when there are 42+ members to consider?
I'm not suggesting that there is a right answer to such a question but rather that it's an important one.

For me personally, it's a no but I wouldn't mind hiring generic crew replacements (like topping up fuel it's a simple top up, rather than vetting individual candidates) after an eject or a particularly damaging combat.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:58 am

• Nor have they any obvious effect on the timing of Maintenance Overhauls (this last, can of course, be handwaved away by arguing that the timing on a large ship would be even more frequent if not for the presence of crew)

I think that timing and cost of maintenance would likely be the most realististic yet simple factor relating to crew.
However, that it would boil down to an investment in order to reduce upkeep costs is a rather disappointing game mechanic.

Something like this could be done with regards to crew however.

It might make sense that a station wouldn't necessarily handle full loading of larger orders for you. So the crew's job might be partly to facilitate that and further to store/handle commodities according to their requirements (perhaps ranging from almost none to highly sensitive).

Redspear wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:28 pm

However, that it would boil down to an investment in order to reduce upkeep costs is a rather disappointing game mechanic.

Only in the sense that it is somewhat redundant with the purchase of the big ship itself: it's all about return on investment (besides the fun of driving a big ship, that is). However, once the purchase cost is paid, few things prevent the player from accumulating credits thanks to it; namely maintenance costs, the "efficiency" game mechanic (the fact that the player uses it in an optimal way) and... accidents, maybe.

In any case, other game mechanics than the classic risk/profit are welcome, and this one in particular could help with making profit growth logarithmic, rather than linear if not exponential. I have not played OOlite for a while, but last time I checked there was an issue at both ends of the game: the more you have, the easier the game is - and conversely the lesser you have the more difficult it is. Ideally you want to make progress fast early, and slower as playing hours increase. Eventually progress practically stops - but people who get to this point just enjoy the game anyway, progress or not.

Another take on the crew topic, is that big ships are pretty much end-game ships; at this stage you have more credits than you need. Maybe those ships with crews could be used as some sort of "spawning" platform; crew members who accumulate enough experience could start their own business with their own ship bought with their wages.

This would result in the possibility for the player to create a new commander with a player-chosen amount of cash in bank and ship (all costs subtracted from their "main" account, of course), which would be nice to try out other ships/career choices all in a "gamified" framework (of course players can just start a new account anytime, we are just creating a goal or quest here). This is currently beyond the reach of mods, though, as it would require an API function to basically create a new "saved game".

Big ships are slightly easier to hit, both by the player and even for the AI. (at least for certain versions of Oolite)

There are a few missions/campaigns that are easier if you take a fast Asp instead of a Boa 2.
Trying to do them in an Anaconda, Boa 1, or Python is likely just painful...

But the Asp's money-making abilities are just awful, due to not having any cargo space and rather limited Gold/Platinum capacity. (499 kg of each)
...So only someone already rich can attempt to use it much.

This is where storing ships comes in so handy -- so you can wear whatever "hat" you need for the current task.
And that needs to be even more expensive -- storage fees and/or requiring the ownership of rock hermits/other stations.
This can put a crimp on the range of an explorer if they have only 1 place to switch back into their other ship/s.

Having your "spare" ships transported to you can be game-balanced by multi-day long delays and exorbitant fees (1000+ credits to cross a Galactic Chart, 10000+ to cross to the next Galactic Chart, etc) -- any mission and contract deadlines will likely be blown, which makes even these credit amounts seem tiny.
And then after you get your "spare" ship, your previous one also has to be transported and stored -- More credits gone!
On top of that, both ships will need repairs from travel which is often a few percent of their total value.
There could even be a very low chance of the ships being damaged/destroyed in transport or if their storage facility is attacked.
Pity the poor sod whose ships were stored at a system that went nova...

Being rich-and-powerful shouldn't be cheap.

Astrobe wrote:

last time I checked there was an issue at both ends of the game: the more you have, the easier the game is - and conversely the lesser you have the more difficult it is

Pretty much... Some oxps to address that but still very much relevant.

Switeck wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:17 pm

Being rich-and-powerful shouldn't be cheap.

Agreed

Astrobe wrote:

Another take on the crew topic, is that big ships are pretty much end-game ships; at this stage you have more credits than you need

Personally I think part of the problem with the big ships is that the cargo space is used for commodities and the commodites were designed for shipments of 0-35, not 0-150 (or 750...)

Rescue missions or mass transport (without passenger cabins - a la nova mission) could be an interesting use of the space but then more space would still mean more income unless other rewards were found.

Imagine a 'random hits' style oxp that generated rescue missions where reputation was based primarily on both success and numbers rescued. Would the reward have to be financial? It's not easy to grant a reward that isn't either an honorific or progress related (normally marked by income). System unlocks???

Redspear wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:19 pm

Astrobe wrote:

Another take on the crew topic, is that big ships are pretty much end-game ships; at this stage you have more credits than you need

Personally I think part of the problem with the big ships is that the cargo space is used for commodities and the commodites were designed for shipments of 0-35, not 0-150 (or 750...)

The commodities market being set up for shipments of 0-35 I feel is a good thing -- it reduces big ship profit but doesn't hurt smaller ships. If an Anaconda could be assured of 750 TC of the most valuable commodities all the time, it would be insanely profitable. But if even main stations carry at most 63 TC of a commodity...it's far less profitable.

Switeck wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 3:49 am

The commodities market being set up for shipments of 0-35 I feel is a good thing

OK, it seems that I've not been very clear. Once again my attempts at being concise fall flat

There's quantity for sale and then there's profit per unit.
I think you're talking primarily about the first one and I'm talking primarilty about the second one.
Both were set for the 0-35TC range because that's all the player could have in the original elite.

Completely agree with your analysis that more for sale would just be, "insanely profitable", for the larger ships because of both (not just quantity) being set as described above. That's why I would not see greater quantities for sale as a fix of any kind (at least certainly not without other changes).

The "fix" for quantities for sale that many people who play Oolite do is add extra stations to visit...usually those stations are more specialized than the main station and have less quantities as well.

I like the variety, but don't want 5+ extra stations at every tech level 12-and-up system I visit...so I set up secondary station exclusions and generally only 1 or 2 gets added to any system.

As for profit per unit, a more important change than reducing any large price differences in say computers and furs going from 1 system to another is making sure the price differences in the same system at various stations is generally minimal or none.

If you can buy Liquors/Wines at the main station for 20 credits each and sell them at "thirsty" rock hermits for 40 credits each, the only thing preventing you from making a lot of quick-and-easy credits that way is rock hermits may only buy 5-15 of them. Visiting rock hermits used to be more profitable, but the core game reduced that down from roughly 5-15 credits profit each to 1-5 credits profit each.
Hauling mining products back to the main station is still free credits though...

Back on the subject of computers and furs being too profitable...it's really only computers that are too profitable. Furs prices are too variable and are generally so few in number as well as variable that even a Cobra 3 can't fill up on them.

Everything else (except narcotics!) is less profitable than computers/furs. I don't see much reason to make those even less profitable.
Alloys have the distinction of being so variable in price that you can't consistently haul them for profit at all -- you have to "catch" them while they're cheaper and hope they're more expensive at the would-be selling destination.

Larger ships can carry around cargo and NOT sell it...waiting for better prices. Smaller ships hardly have that luxury except for Gold/Plat/Gems.

Hidden costs of regularly needing to repair your ship even if never in combat and never bumping into the station when docking vastly reduces total profits.
This probably hurts small ships more, even though they have less mass to work on, because their profit-making ability is so much lower.
...But anyone who wants to play around in a 1+ million credit ship better be raking in credits just to cover its repair bills!