Oolite Bulletins

PhantorGorth wrote:

Having read you annoucement, it sounds like you are trying to create each wiki page using a script. If you are I suggest you use XSLT, that's how I did the Galaxy 6 and it is designed for the job.

Correct interpretation. But I'll do it in perl, as I've done similar jobs before.

PhantorGorth wrote:

Well I have the code already in XSLT. It wouldn't be that hard to modify for your purposes. If you decided to do it yourself read this thread first regarding the distance calculation as it isn't what you expect mathematically.

The code is alredy implemented in my module, and, yes, I'm aware of the rounding problem and had already solved this during the weekend based on Ian Bells TXTELITE.C algorithms.

PhantorGorth wrote:

If you are putting new stuff back into the community it's not really leeching. If you want to do that if you really are worrying about taking too much then feel free to do so as it that would speed things up a little for me but I would want it as a list of system numbers, not names, as well as the trade route title. If you could do it as used in my Map Data file all the better.

I was not going for names, either. All my references are numbers, so the trading routes will be done with numbers, too.
Currently, as a test, I've got a simple text file. A line starting with text indicates a new trade route. Lines with numbers indicate the planets, the first line being the main route, subsequent lines indicating forks:
---- 8< ----
Spaceway L2
7 129 227 73 89 222 29 93 42 131
---- 8< ----
This describes the Spaceway L2 in G1, starting in Lave (7), ending in Zadies (131)
If it had a fork in Zaonce (129) via Tionisla to Zaalela (201), it would look like this:
---- 8< ----
Spaceway L2a
7 129 227 73 89 222 29 93 42 131
129 124 201
---- 8< ----
This way, I could even do loops or alternative routes. If a system has one link, its a start/endpoint, if it has two, it is a passthrough, and anything greater is a fork.

I use a simple verifyer on this by checking the distances between systems in the list to catch typos.

PhantorGorth wrote:

By turn into a list I assume you want to find what systems are in what regions. That is not going to be that simple, I'm afraid. For a start they are not all ellipses. When you look at the PDF, or the file you convert it to, as text you can't guarantee that the name of the region is going to be easily associable to the region outline graphics and also each format will have different way to describe the outline. Having a good ideas of what it would involve I would say that it would take quite a bit of work to find a way to get the information you are after programatically by which time you might as well have done it manually as it would be quicker.

You're right, I'll do it similar to the routes: one line with text as the title, and a line of numbers for the systems involved. This leaves identifying the best shape for a new map to you, except when you can do something like overlapping circles and take their outlines, or something like that...

PhantorGorth wrote:

You can get these easily by just opening one of the PDFs in Inkscape, ungroup everything and pull the graphics apart to get at them. It's all drawings not images so you can scale them as much as you want. If I was doing what you are trying to do I would instead modify my second XSLT script to create an SVG document that consisting of a single system icon and then write another script to call that modified script 256 times changing which system is rendered each time and outputing each to a separate file. Then you could create all 2048 system icons as SVG files for embedding in the wikipage. For your information my script creates each system icon by building it up from component parts based on the system details.

Ah, graphics - not my world, though. But if you send me the stuff I'll give it a try...

PhantorGorth wrote:

I will send you the stuff I have if you PM me your email address.

I sent you a mail yesterday from my private email address.
Oops, I sent it to ClymAngus by mistake. I sent you a pm a few minutes ago...

PhantorGorth wrote:

If you want it in its current state PM me your email address. It will involve installing some unix tools or their ports for your OS.

My system runs OpenSuse. Sadly, I have to turn to my wifes PC (running XP) for the game, as I can't gat oolite compiled on my machine.

Yours, Christian Treczoks

treczoks wrote:

My system runs OpenSuse. Sadly, I have to turn to my wifes PC (running XP) for the game, as I can't gat oolite compiled on my machine.

Did you try the Linux Autopackage installer? That's been tested successfully on OpenSUSE 11.1 according to Getafix...

Diziet Sma wrote:

treczoks wrote:

My system runs OpenSuse. Sadly, I have to turn to my wifes PC (running XP) for the game, as I can't gat oolite compiled on my machine.

Did you try the Linux Autopackage installer? That's been tested successfully on OpenSUSE 11.1 according to Getafix...

Nope, never heard about this. I got the sources, and tried to compile the stuff, but something with the openstep does not work out. Do you have a pointer to this solution? My wife would love to get her machine back...

Yours, Christian Treczoks

http://developer.berlios.de/project/sho ... e_id=16752

The .package executable is the one you want. It might need to download some autopackage support files the first time it's run, but it seems to work ok on most systems!

@treczoks
I have your Email address now and I will send you the the XSLT files and the current Map Data file for Gal 6 when I get home (currently I'm at work).

For your information I am intending to create another version of my first XSLT file which will convert the output of my spreadsheet (Oolite Galaxies.ods) saved as XML to an unmodified Map Data file.

Also I should be able to this weekend quickly write you a script to create all the systems as separate SVG files if you want.

Just to ask, and I am not trying to put a downer on what you trying to do, but how are you going to deal with the fact that some OXPs change the systems specifications? The system icons would alter in these cases.

Kaks wrote:

http://developer.berlios.de/project/sho ... e_id=16752

The .package executable is the one you want. It might need to download some autopackage support files the first time it's run, but it seems to work ok on most systems!

And, just in case you need it.. how to install an autopackage instructions are available here..
http://autopackage.org/docs/howto-install

PhantorGorth wrote:

Just to ask, and I am not trying to put a downer on what you trying to do, but how are you going to deal with the fact that some OXPs change the systems specifications? The system icons would alter in these cases.

I'll stick to the canonical data as much as possible. Once the entries are generated, everything can be edited in the wiki. And templates can be expanded, too, to accomodate additional data fields.

PhantorGorth wrote:

I suggest you open the PDFs in a program such as Inkscape and remove the black rectangle that is in the background.
Also opening the maps in inkscape will give you access to the system icons.

If it only worked - I installed inkscape, but get an internal error when I attempt to open the PDFs.

Update: I managed to open the SVG, but I can't really do something with it. Not that I expected this program to be easy, but I can't get even the simplest things to work...

Graphics was never my realm

Yours, Christian

treczoks wrote:

PhantorGorth wrote:

I suggest you open the PDFs in a program such as Inkscape and remove the black rectangle that is in the background.
Also opening the maps in inkscape will give you access to the system icons.

If it only worked - I installed inkscape, but get an internal error when I attempt to open the PDFs.

Not sure why that would happen.

treczoks wrote:

Update: I managed to open the SVG, but I can't really do something with it. Not that I expected this program to be easy, but I can't get even the simplest things to work...

Once open you should select the all the systems by clicking on one. All of them are grouped together as a single object. Once selected, to ungroup then do Ctrl-Shift-G. This should then give you all systems as separate objects. Click off the map to deselect then select a world of interest. Now ungroup that and of one the sub-objects should be the government icon you are after. If you delete everything else and save the document in the format of choice you can take it from there. Repeat for each of the 8 government types.

Ok I want to be honest here with out being over critical. Map 6 is dog ugly which is fine who says something practical has to be pretty eh?

Well I do. I cant help it, it's an artistic thing. This of course creates a problem; I'm not prepared to sign off on this as it stands. But it isn't really my call any more. Also I'm painfully aware that if there is a major differing of opinion between people who have created separate sectors or grouplings or whatever then you can easily get a proliferation in "versions" of any one map.

So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to take the guts of this, incorperating as many ideas and sectors as possible (some small things are going to have to go). Make it beautiful, creating my interpretation of gal 6 (I can also change the title across the board for the others images as well).

That way if the populus has a hard on for the new look then fine. But I'm finishing at least one version of this project, my way (predominantly for me). It maybe slower but there are certain aspects composition that computers can't and will never get.

I'm not trying to do down PhantorGorth's excellent work and his system will take mapping into the next level of multi-media. but it sucks every ounce of joy out of map making for me. It turns this project into my every day coding job, I get plenty of that every day. This might make me look like a bit of an asshole, but if that's the price for a finished project with visual symmetry then so be it.

Sorry guys, for my own sanity, I've got to fix it.

ClymA - maps have always been a work of art (literally) - so I hear what you're saying.

I think you offer some sound reasoning - as you say PGs way will allow multi-media integration and I suspect there will indeed be two versions of the maps available - truly artistic (yours) and (eventually) multi-media (PGs) - both with their merits and flaws - I will of course in my pacifist way use both.

The good thing about this forum (I hope) is that we're all grown up enough to hear what you say and accept your point of view, perhaps agree or disagree, but respect it nonetheless.

I look forward to your finished maps - however long they take.

DH

ClymAngus wrote:

Ok I want to be honest here with out being over critical. Map 6 is dog ugly which is fine who says something practical has to be pretty eh?

Well I do. I cant help it, it's an artistic thing.
...
Sorry guys, for my own sanity, I've got to fix it.

Go for it! I hadn't so much as even looked at PhantorGorth's map until I read the above, and IMHO I agree with your assessment. Whilst I respect what PG's done and the possibilities opened up by his method, I've always felt this project was your baby and I'm glad you're not walking away from it... (yes, I was beginning to wonder)

Carry on sir, and I look forward to the day I have the complete set!

Well it looks like people don't want what I have done. Given that we seem to be mostly arguing over the my artistic parts which was never really encompassed by my scripts in the first place. Unfortunately people are dissing whole thing because of these regions and such. The underlying coded generated bit just does the systems, routes, key, title and credits and most of these are editable in the map file and not hard coded. The aim of doing something more interactive was a secondary goal for later. Ok, people don't like the regions stuff I did. If you read back I originally did a version of the map with them in only to point out the things I noticed. I was hoping for everyone else's input and got no response so I put my artistic bits in the main G6 map and also said I would happily remove them. No one has asked me to do so. Maybe I overstepped my mark by putting them in the first place but there you go. I was also hoping that Clym would take control again from me as soon as his head round my method but that never happened.

My original aim was to be helpful by doing the parts that were tedious so Clym could get to the interesting part quickly and accurately. Clym if you find my methods an anathama and "sucks every ounce of joy out of map making" and don't want to use it I'm not forcing you.

Well, tonight I will remove my regions stuff and publish my code as is. If Clym or someone else wants to use my code feel free because it looks like I won't be.

Its all your's Clym good luck with it.

Yipes... PhantorGorth, I apologise that what I wrote upset you, that was not my intent.. to be honest, I'd expected to see kind of a collaborative effort between you and ClymAngus.. I'm sorry now that I didn't say so earlier.. I don't know why it didn't happen that way, maybe more communication would have helped.. please don't be in a hurry to walk away from the project.. you contributed a lot of good ideas and discussion as well as code.. it would be a shame to lose that..

Diziet Sma wrote:

Yipes... PhantorGorth, I apologise that what I wrote upset you, that was not my intent.. to be honest, I'd expected to see kind of a collaborative effort between you and ClymAngus.. I'm sorry now that I didn't say so earlier.. I don't know why it didn't happen that way, maybe more communication would have helped.. please don't be in a hurry to walk away from the project.. you contributed a lot of good ideas and discussion as well as code.. it would be a shame to lose that..

Don't take it all on yourself. Clym has, through PMs, told me he doesn't enjoy using my code. Don't understand that since I remove the work needed to do the tedious bit so he can get to the interesting parts but fine I can live with that. After all I wasn't asked to do it in the first place. I am more upset by the dissing of all my work just on my regions stuff. Ok may be shouldn't have incorporated my ideas into the main G6 map but no one including Clym told me to remove it nor came up with anything else. I was trying to be so careful not to tread on Clym's toes and we had a few PMs about this. I was expecting Clym to be re-working the regions but instead he is going to pull it to peices. Others are now agreeing but didn't say anything of the sort to me before. So as nothing I have done, code or regions/artistic stuff, is actually good enough to go forward with, you can see why I am disheartened and won't be doing anything more on this.