Oolite Bulletins

Another suggestion, but I very much doubt it will be implemented.

The ability to switch between your ship and your pilot, so you can walk around your ships interior, or a station.

Just something I always wanted to do, but as I said, I doubt it would be implemented.

Two crazy suggestions,
one, could we have turreted lasers. The lasers would be assigned to one of the normal viewpoints, like now, but you toggle between steering the ship and aiming the laser and you would have to fire it manually. The laser would fire like a normal laser on it's viewpoint; except if you aimed it, it could fire anywhere in a certain arc.
two, could we have the ability to save without docking, so that we could save when we are flying in-system or when we are docked at the main station, in other words we couldn't save when we are docked at an oxp-added station or a rock hermit, or in interstellar space.

Commander Wilmot wrote:

Two crazy suggestions,
one, could we have turreted lasers. The lasers would be assigned to one of the normal viewpoints, like now, but you toggle between steering the ship and aiming the laser and you would have to fire it manually. The laser would fire like a normal laser on it's viewpoint; except if you aimed it, it could fire anywhere in a certain arc.
two, could we have the ability to save without docking, so that we could save when we are flying in-system or when we are docked at the main station, in other words we couldn't save when we are docked at an oxp-added station or a rock hermit, or in interstellar space.

I like the idea of turretted lasers in this way but I would think it a good idea to have some limits that make sense. Perhaps range and damage of a pulse laser and a couple of different fire rates with a rapid fire model being expensive and good for tagging small targets(like missiles even).

What I really like about this idea is that it might open up the possibility of being a gunner while you hire a copilot to fly the ship when you are shooting.(or vice versa)

Commander Wilmot wrote:

Two crazy suggestions,
one, could we have turreted lasers. The lasers would be assigned to one of the normal viewpoints, like now, but you toggle between steering the ship and aiming the laser and you would have to fire it manually. The laser would fire like a normal laser on it's viewpoint; except if you aimed it, it could fire anywhere in a certain arc.
two, could we have the ability to save without docking, so that we could save when we are flying in-system or when we are docked at the main station, in other words we couldn't save when we are docked at an oxp-added station or a rock hermit, or in interstellar space.

Given that the player isn't supposed to be unique, but one trader, in a normal ship, amongst millions of others...

So, question is, how long do you think you'll last against a horde of pirates armed with turreted lasers?

I think the Dev team have stated on a number of occasions that the weapon set is the weapon set.

My thought is that the main use would be to deter people perusing you or, if you are in a large ship, to target ships more maneuverable than yours. You would have to choose between flying or aiming. When you are aiming you can toggle the injectors and aim and fire the laser, you can't steer; you are quite simply an easy, straight flying target; however if you are attempting to flee on injectors, being fast and flying straight is often more important than being able to dodge, especially if you can aim and fire at your pursuers. When you are flying the ship, you can fire the laser, but it fires like a regular laser and you are not restricted to being an easy target; but the laser isn't automatic, it won't aim or fire without you, you choose to fire it like any other laser, unlike the plasma turrets currently used.

Given that the player isn't supposed to be unique, but one trader, in a normal ship, amongst millions of others...

So, question is, how long do you think you'll last against a horde of pirates armed with turreted lasers?

I think I will do just as well as I do when I have at least ten or so pirates on my tail and they are all flying high end, multi-lasered, iron-assed ships such as these,

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/File:I ... olite).pnghttp://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/File:Ww7.jpghttp://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/File:Civpurg.jpghttp://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/File:Dbinc.jpghttp://www.purgatori.net/redux/redv4.jpg

and these.
http://wiki.alioth.net/images/8/89/Firefly_sm.png http://wiki.alioth.net/images/0/04/Swift_sm.pnghttp://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/File:Merlin_sm.pnghttp://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/File:Pallas_sm.pnghttp://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/File:Kestrel_sm.png

I, on the other hand have this, http://www.purgatori.net/mil%20DB.jpg, two mil lasers, and six missiles.

p.s. sorry about all the urls, I tried putting those images directly in the post and it didn't work.

1. Could we please cut down the military laser's range to 25km or less? I know the laser is the way it was in Elite, but so is the torus drive, I personally find the way it currently is unbalanced especially since npcs don't have them and oxp ships which do treat them like beam lasers. This results in the player being able to take out most ships way before they are able to return fire. The npc ships don't engage with lasers (though some do launch missiles) until the distance is down to 9-12km.

2. Now that we are giving the npcs shields, can they have damagable equipment (the correct term is probably frangible, but then everyone would be thinking of subents) so stuff like the fuel injectors and ecm can be disable when they take damage to their energy banks.

Commander Wilmot wrote:

1. Could we please cut down the military laser's range to 25km or less? I know the laser is the way it was in Elite, but so is the torus drive, I personally find the way it currently is unbalanced especially since npcs don't have them and oxp ships which do treat them like beam lasers. This results in the player being able to take out most ships way before they are able to return fire. The npc ships don't engage with lasers (though some do launch missiles) until the distance is down to 9-12km.

2. Now that we are giving the npcs shields, can they have damagable equipment (the correct term is probably frangible, but then everyone would be thinking of subents) so stuff like the fuel injectors and ecm can be disable when they take damage to their energy banks.

The military laser is the best because it has the range. Snipers like myself find it invaluable to be able to take-out a ship that's off the scanner. And of course no regular 'core' NPC has one....how would the poor Jamesons ever survive if they were out-gunned from day one. Core NPCs are weedy because they have to be for this reason. However as the players' skills and equipment increase, so can the NPCs thanks to OXPs. Random Hits, Assassins and Toughguys (to name just three) all have NPCs with military lasers, so the NPCs can keep up with the player and vice-versa. Also in my experience they use them properly as well...I've taken more hits than I care to remember from ships right on the edge of scanner range.
Your second point is valid, and having NPCs taking equipment damage would be a thoroughly worthwhile addition to the game.

Commander Wilmot wrote:

... and oxp ships which do treat them like beam lasers.

?

To the best of my knowledge NPC military lasers are treated as military lasers. NPCs don't generally shoot if out of scanner range, but this is caused by not being able to target, not by lack of laser range. Truth be told, I don't think that I have ever used my laser on anything out of scanner range for basically the same reason: I can't target it, so I probably don't even know what it is (which I generally like to know before I kill it).

I can testify that Random Hits difficult marks and their escorts have regularly stripped my shields from the edge of scanner range with military lasers often before I've even managed to turn and get them in my sights.

It's not nice (but fun none the less) having the tables turned!....

The only things I've killed from outside scanner range have been added as part of the galactic navy, or more accurately the pirates that come with them: Rogue frigates, pirate bases, and that one Behemoth. Anything else is barely targetable by eye, and certainly not by a keyboard controlled laser.

Smivs wrote:

Commander Wilmot wrote:

1. Could we please cut down the military laser's range to 25km or less? I know the laser is the way it was in Elite, but so is the torus drive, I personally find the way it currently is unbalanced especially since npcs don't have them and oxp ships which do treat them like beam lasers. This results in the player being able to take out most ships way before they are able to return fire. The npc ships don't engage with lasers (though some do launch missiles) until the distance is down to 9-12km.

2. Now that we are giving the npcs shields, can they have damagable equipment (the correct term is probably frangible, but then everyone would be thinking of subents) so stuff like the fuel injectors and ecm can be disable when they take damage to their energy banks.

The military laser is the best because it has the range. Snipers like myself find it invaluable to be able to take-out a ship that's off the scanner. And of course no regular 'core' NPC has one....how would the poor Jamesons ever survive if they were out-gunned from day one. Core NPCs are weedy because they have to be for this reason. However as the players' skills and equipment increase, so can the NPCs thanks to OXPs. Random Hits, Assassins and Toughguys (to name just three) all have NPCs with military lasers, so the NPCs can keep up with the player and vice-versa. Also in my experience they use them properly as well...I've taken more hits than I care to remember from ships right on the edge of scanner range.
Your second point is valid, and having NPCs taking equipment damage would be a thoroughly worthwhile addition to the game.

If there is any problem it is to do with AI or accuracy. Oxp's with military lasers should have these looked at if there is a problem.

Accuracy is described in the scripting section of the oolite wiki.
From shipdata.plist

accuracy
Used with missiles it has influence on tracking of target. Allowed values with missiles are between 0.0 and 10.0. When not defined, the system assings to the missile the accuracy value of 0.0, which corresponds to the standard missile tracking behaviour.

Used with NPC ships it enlarges the chance of shooting at greater distances. Value with NPC ships is between -5 and 10.

Therefore, setting accuracy to -5 should make the npc ship come very close before firing and a setting of 10 should make the npc ship shoot very soon after becoming hostile, perhaps as far as he can scan, not sure.

Only if this doesn't solve this potential problem should the AI be looked at. I believe it will though and oxp makers with military lasers should set accuracy high and test to be sure the npc attacks far enough away for the range of his laser.

Smivs, in working on the chupacabra with sniper camera system I currently have one of the custom views with a range of 27000 that gives a good view to the military lasers max range of 30000. Works pretty good in testing when you toggle the stick sensitivity even with the chupacabra's pitch of 1.2. Any higher pitch and it would be too hard to aim at that distance even with stick sensitivity toggled down. Being a pilot who snipes, do you think this is too far to aim with no target lock or is targetting to the edge of laser range something that appeals to you?

There is a tradeoff to sniping that makes it a nice, balanced addition. To do so requires that you be focused on the target using a distant view(zoomed in) and have stick sensitivity turned down for aiming. Nearby ships will find you a target that cannot maneuver in this state. Also the aim isn't perfect and REQUIRES marksmanship, more as you zoom farther away. All this combined with keeping the zoom adjusted correctly is a real skill that is quite rewarding when you have the flow and timing figured out and practiced. It has to be practiced to be appreciated. The other balance of lasers that can hit out of scanner range is there is no target lock and you can accidently shoot what you can't even see. Another reason to zoom in and balances things out.

I would not like having the range reduced on the military lasers. A possible explanation for npc's hitting at the edge of scanner range is some sort of improved optics and the player should have that same ability and thus why I'm pursuing a zoomable sniper camera system.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Smivs, in working on the chupacabra with sniper camera system I currently have one of the custom views with a range of 27000 that gives a good view to the military lasers max range of 30000. Works pretty good in testing when you toggle the stick sensitivity even with the chupacabra's pitch of 1.2. Any higher pitch and it would be too hard to aim at that distance even with stick sensitivity toggled down. Being a pilot who snipes, do you think this is too far to aim with no target lock or is targetting to the edge of laser range something that appeals to you?

Well, I could see it making things easier. I have a 'sensitive' target reticule (one thet turns red when the target is fairly central) which as you know gives a close indication that the aim is good, and have precision toggle on the 'stick. Other than that I just use sight. I've had my ship so long now I know exactly where the 'sweet spot' is, and have played enough to get pretty good at judging aim. So if a ship is off the scanner but still visible to the naked eye there's a good chance I'll hit it. It's an acquired skill, and one I derive pleasure from using, so what you describe isn't for me, but I could see it being very useful for others, and a very popular addition to the game if it were released as an OXP.

Thargoid wrote:

You can't do anything with the AI. The only way to get an NPC to attack (with a laser anyway) is to issue performAttack (or groupAttackTarget for ship groups) and then the trunk code handles the rest. Other than initiating things and perhaps stopping them, there's nothing you can actually do to influence when a ship does or doesn't fire.

Perhaps you're right. There does however seem to be some room for improvement in the pirateAI. In TRAVEL_TO_START_POSITION the ship has to travel 1500 before it even has a chance to look for a merchantman. If you encounter a pirate in this state he won't even acknowledge your existence unless you attack him. Next up is LURK. He waits scans for merchantmen and has to wait 5.0 before reacting to that scan. These 2 added up allows the player in most cases to attack first or retreat. While some reaction delay is ok, I think the TRAVEL_TO_START_POSITION is not realistic as a pirate would be scanning and reacting to a merchantman at all times. If you meet pirates within that 1500 range they must travel when they are first created you have a free first attack. Also if they flee they travel 25600 and stop. They should travel at least 30001(if not more) to be out of the range of the military laser.

This is what I noticed just taking a few minutes to look(if I understand it all correctly) and there is lots of room for improvement. Then add in JS and some really good changes to the behaviour of ships could happen.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

There does however seem to be some room for improvement in the pirateAI. In TRAVEL_TO_START_POSITION the ship has to travel 1500 before it even has a chance to look for a merchantman. If you encounter a pirate in this state he won't even acknowledge your existence unless you attack him. Next up is LURK. He waits scans for merchantmen and has to wait 5.0 before reacting to that scan. These 2 added up allows the player in most cases to attack first or retreat. While some reaction delay is ok, I think the TRAVEL_TO_START_POSITION is not realistic as a pirate would be scanning and reacting to a merchantman at all times. If you meet pirates within that 1500 range they must travel when they are first created you have a free first attack.

These pauses were added deliberately, because it wasn't considered realistic and desirable that every pirate would always attack the player on sight (which is how the AI used to work). So the current state is already an improvement.

CommonSenseOTB wrote:

Also if they flee they travel 25600 and stop. They should travel at least 30001(if not more) to be out of the range of the military laser.

Obviously the priority for them is to get out of scanner range, not out of laser range. The chance of actually getting hit from a range of 25601-30001 meters is pretty minuscule, I'd say, if you don't fly a Behemoth, which usual pirates don't.