Oolite Bulletins

ClymAngus wrote:

, lense flares,

Why is everybody(*) so damn keen on lens flares? I just don't get it. In (animated) movies, computer games, comic books, general artwork?

It's an evil inherent in physical cameras (internal reflections amongst the optical elements). But why emulate it?? Human(**) eyeballs don't have this fault so it's purely an artifical construct in the first place. Please, enlighten me.(***)


(*) Ok, so I -may- have slightly exagerated here. But anecdotal evidence does point to a pretty large percentage of the virtually-generated scenery people, and consumers of said virtually rendered scenery.

(**) Well, mine don't at any rate. Perhaps mine are (even more) faulty.

(**) Yes, this is off-topic. Feel free to (re)move or ignore.

Ganelon wrote:

I don't think that any OXP can or will "break the game". The game is the game, and the OXPs are expansion packs which are purely optional. An OXP could result in making the game of a player who loads it pointless or no fun to play, but that doesn't "break the game".

If you were referring to my comment that relaxing the 7ly limit will break the game, then I think you have misunderstood and I need to be clearer. (If you weren't, I just used your mail to clarify my view )
I agree, an OXP will not break the game since the player can choose whether to install it. However, in my opinion, changing the internal game mechanics can. In this case, the 7ly limit is an internal game limitation adjusted to the size of the galaxies and spread of the systems in the eight. My point was that if you remove that limitation or increase it to, let's say 10ly, the game play will change quite dramatically, and to compensate the Galaxy set would need to change too. I'm all for it, but I believe you shouldn't change one without changing the other.

Ahruman, your notes mentioned "Define the default system data explicitly in config files rather than generating it.", will this allow stuff like natural Disasters and Wars etc to break out on systems and make certain types of cargo more desirable to trade there? or even put certain systems on the map out of bounds for a while etc?
oo, and actually whilst i'm thinking about it, will there be a way to subtract cargo space from the players ship to emulate certain items of equipment taking up room inside the ship, or, even have certain types of cargo incompatible with other types - eg radioactives contaminating cargo if you take a lot of damage etc

Micha wrote:

It's an evil inherent in physical cameras (internal reflections amongst the optical elements). But why emulate it?? Human(**) eyeballs don't have this fault

Oh, they do, and it’s already simulated (very badly) in Oolite in the form of flashers. Glare in the human eye isn’t identical to cameras because eyes are made of squishy bits instead of hard components with sharp edges, but the mechanisms are similar.

The anatomically-inspired glare effect in Overgrowth is interesting (see also the linked paper).

I don’t have any interest in putting giant fake-camera lens flares on the sun, or the terrible look-we-have-fake-HDR bloom effects shoved into every shooter these days, but I would like to have realistic glare from light sources to replace flashers.

Griff wrote:

Ahruman, your notes mentioned "Define the default system data explicitly in config files rather than generating it.", will this allow stuff like natural Disasters and Wars etc to break out on systems and make certain types of cargo more desirable to trade there?

Market manipulation is a separate issue.

Griff wrote:

or even put certain systems on the map out of bounds for a while etc?

I’m not sure moving systems around is a good idea, both for gameplay and technical reasons. For this sort of usage, the ability to hide and show systems would probably be more useful.

Ganelon wrote:

If the prime goal of Oolite 1 might be stated as having been to make an open source game that was a faithful recreation of Elite with some enhancements, then what would be the goal of Oolite 2?

Pretty, easy fix space opera thingy of love and joy.
Allow me to paint you a picture; your monitor as a window on the universe. An impossible space fantasy, for a terra bound generation. A dream of things that may never come to pass (by design, politics or through physics.) Yet we dream and alter the world we have created all the same.


Hell, I want to sit in a cockpit, float, crack open a bru, pop on a bit of Vangelis and watch the traders pass by. And I want it to look like space sex on a stick. Anything that furthers those aims, I will bite my pride for and shut the hell up for.

No, I wasn't ranting at your point in particular, Gimi. Sorry if I came off sounding like I was.

7 may be an arbitrary number, but having some sort of a limit serves a purpose in the game. If the limit is set too big, then planning a route would become a moot point. We could just hop, skip and jump in a more or less straight path to anywhere. At present, that's a part of the gameplay, figuring out a route to get you to a destination on a mission or cargo run. If we increased it to 10 ly (to stick with your example) with the current map, we'd pretty much eliminate that whole element of the gameplay.

An OXP could feasibly be allowed to do just that, and I don't think it would break the game, but I also don't think I'd want it for the Oolite I play. It would take out too much thinking for me to find it attractive.

Ganelon wrote:

I don't think that any OXP can or will "break the game".

I don't think that's the point. An OXP is by definition the realization of one (or more) customizable aspect(s) which the game itself provides through its scripting interface. It cannot do anything which 'the game' cannot do. So yes, following this logic no OXP can break the game.

But this is a tautology. It merely says 'an OXP is an expansion of Oolite', which is only what the very name 'OXP' already means.

The point of debate is a different one, namely: which customizability shall Oolite 2.0 allow beyond what is already present in Oolite 1.7x? What exactly do we want future OXPs to be able to change/enhance?

And as tempting as it may be to respond 'everything', I don't actually think that this would be a sensible answer. First, there are some very basic limitations by the nature of the game: however customizable the game will become, you won't be able to turn it into a Formula 1-racing simulation, a Chess simulation, a Word Processor, a Recording Studio, or an umbrella just through an OXP. The game is customizable, but not that customizable. (The developers may prove me wrong on one or the other item of the list, but I am fairly sure about the umbrella. )

Which means: as long as Oolite 2 is intended as a space-trading-and-shooting game, a GrandTheftAuto.oxp will not be in the scope of its scripting engine. Or, to give it a slightly different twist (and because it has been requested on these boards), as long as Oolite 2 is intended as an Elite-like-space-trading-and-shooting game, a Frontier.oxp will not be in the scope of its scripting engine.

So, 'everything' is not even an option to begin with. Thus the question arises which limitations the future game engine shall provide, and which of the current limitations shall be lifted. If we want to debate this question, we'll have to talk about concrete examples, not generalizations. The 7LY-limitation is one of these examples, and in my opinion valid arguments can be made against lifting it.

Just an idea. (Assumption for this idea is that the 7ly limit remains or is adjusted very little)

How would the game play if you take the first four galaxies and layer them, lets say, 5ly apart with some adjustments of course. That would be your "new" first galaxy. Do the same with galaxy 5-8 and you have galaxy two. Then you add, in the same manner another six galaxies totalling 8192 systems. Of course, you can turn this around and play with it until you get as many systems as you like. (Layer just two or layer all eight, and so on).

Any easy way to demonstrate this with what is available?

Can I just say this is *extremely* exciting.

The thought occurs that we might want to approach this in some manner of a traditional SDLC project and create some sort of catalogue of functional and non-functional requirements; then debate, confirm and then prioritise them?

I'd *love* to see a more sophisticated graphics engine, more dynamic external cameras, enhanced lasers, illumination and so on.

I'd also like to see Oolite 2 be able to take advantage of modern computer hardware. Onwards and upwards I say.

More power to the developers!

From a 'setting' point of view. Would 'Oolite 2' could be set a few decades after 'Oolite'? Or could be 'another' universe, with slightly different rules? I'd be interested in contributing to a narrative there...

Cheers,

Drew.

As has been said many times over these boards thank you for a brilliant piece of continuing work, brings back and improves upon many memories. I hope there are no objections to a first post appearing in a thread on future directions?

One possible way to make the 7 LY limit seem less abstract could be to create a theory where there were exponential relationship between the jump distance and the energy and time required for it. Maybe the probability of a failed jump as well. It should be possible to choose a function where there was very little change to the behaviour of shorter jumps, upto around 5LY but then things start to get more costly before becoming totally impractical somewhere not far above 7LY? It might make calculating the fastest routes across the galaxy a bit more of a challenge.
Another thought around the jumps and the relationship of fuel used to the size of the ship maybe to allow a risk to be taken by making the wormhole fit the ship more tightly to enable that emergency jump, but at an increased risk of a misjump or damage to the ship as it scrapes the entry!

Thanks again to all those developing.

There are a few points I'd like to see fixed:

1) Some kind of precision setting for fine-tuning keyboard movements. Right now, I cannot make fine adjustments when flying and fighting. I would never be able to hit anything if I fly an Adder. And I shudder at the thought of trying to dock with a Coriolis station.

2) OXP Equipment cannot consume cargo space. So we end up with stuff like TGHC stuffing 5 tharglets into a missile pylon to use as escort fighters. Although I greatly enjoy not being so badly outnumbered all the time, it isn't quite realistic or balanced. Besides, wouldn't it be cool to be able to convert an Anaconda freighter so that it can carry some Sidewinders inside it at the cost of some cargo space?

3) Player ships can't have multiple guns now. So Iguanas and the like end up partially crippled. It would be nice if this can be changed, if only for the sake of atmosphere.

4) Right now, players have only limited ways to activate the OXP equipment they buy. Either it activates based on some in-game event, or it uses up a missile pylon so that the equipment can be chosen and activated like a missile.

Sorry if this is not what you meant by looking ahead. I enjoy Oolite, and I greatly look forward to future improvements.

lohwengk wrote:

So we end up with stuff like TGHC stuffing 5 tharglets

Eccentric and old fashioned at times I might be, but stuffing tharglets, is not my cup of tea!
Black Fat Humanoids from Orteve........now that's a different matter entirely!

drew wrote:

The thought occurs that we might want to approach this in some manner of a traditional SDLC project and create some sort of catalogue of functional and non-functional requirements; then debate, confirm and then prioritise them?

We have something along these general lines, but, well, you’re not invited. Throwing it open to the forum would result in a design by committee and an implied obligation for us to spend time implementing features we may not be interested in. We’re open to suggestions, which are precisely that.

drew wrote:

From a 'setting' point of view. Would 'Oolite 2' could be set a few decades after 'Oolite'? Or could be 'another' universe, with slightly different rules? I'd be interested in contributing to a narrative there...

This is undecided, but my working assumption has been a parallel universe that’s much the same, only shinier and possibly more sensible interstellar geometry.

A few items for the wishlist:

A change to the way Oolite tracks position, enabling a much larger area where missions / ships / planets can be spawned without encountering the 'jittering' effects currently hit when spawned in distant positions.

Suns being rendered as spheres (and therefore gaining the ability to texture, etc).

Support for Multiple Light Sources