Oolite Bulletins

I think you are looking at this backwards. Life isnt perfect, everyone here done stuff because they feel like it, not out of compulsion. So I think we all need to understand that this is all on a best efforts basis, and that the lists will never be perfect or complete.

That doesnt mean this is all a waste of time, or a mountain too big to climb, it means we put something together that is 80% and whenever people have a few minutes spare they tidy up, make it better.

I would go further and say it is impossible to get this 100% as there are many versions of many of these things. Most ships have at least 2 prices if you consider the Lestradae versions for example. Some ships are reimagined in some OXPs.

I completely agree with you. That's why I think there are 2 approaches that will work:

1. Every OXP author must have a wiki account and maintain his/her own wiki page, from which tables are autogenerated provided the appropriate Mediawiki addons can be installed

2. OXP authors can have a site anywhere, don't require a wiki account, and the manually updated tables are kept as simple as possible, so that entries can be added or changed in a few seconds

I think a half-way house will result in something that becomes unmaintained.

It is not that easy for a fully populated table to add/remove columns (or at least I haven't found a quick way to do it), hence my reluctance to change what we have (again), but if someone else wants to add or remove columns, go ahead.

We cannot force people to have an account, or to update the wiki, so in my opinion 1 is not an option.

2 is already happening, isnt it? At least, people already have their own webistes and download locations.

Im not sure 2 requires the tables to be manually updated, or to be simple, they can simply be incomplete.

Cmdr James wrote:

2 is already happening, isnt it? At least, people already have their own webistes and download locations.

Yes agreed. I think 1 is unlikely to happen.

Cmdr James wrote:

Im not sure 2 requires the tables to be manually updated, or to be simple, they can simply be incomplete.

If it were possible to have some degree of automation for 2 as you seem to be suggesting, then the tables would not need to be simple I agree. How can automation be achieved if authors have their own separate web sites?

Some authors have their own websites, most will not bother, many will use the wiki, some will have nothing or perhaps just a post on the bb.

The OXPs which are detailed on the wiki get to be included, those that are not, do not. I dont see this as a problem.

Cmdr James wrote:

Some authors have their own websites, most will not bother, many will use the wiki, some will have nothing or perhaps just a post on the bb.

The OXPs which are detailed on the wiki get to be included, those that are not, do not. I dont see this as a problem.

You've identified probably all the possible types of OXP author which is good.

1. OXP authors with wiki sites - autogen works, manual works
2. OXP authors who post on BB - autogen won't work, a wiki editor can manually update
3. OXP authors with websites - autogen won't work, a wiki editor can manually update
4. Other OXP authors - autogen won't work, could email wiki editor to manually update

I imagine some OXP authors who don't have wiki pages might be somewhat irritated to find they are forced to have a wiki page just to have their OXP appear in an autogenerated table but maybe I'm wrong?

And then even if they do bother to have a wiki page, then you have to click through to the wiki page and then again to get to their site?

I think if the OXP tables are too incomplete and major OXPs are not on them, then they're not going to be terribly useful.

mcarans wrote:

Cmdr James wrote:

Some authors have their own websites, most will not bother, many will use the wiki, some will have nothing or perhaps just a post on the bb.

The OXPs which are detailed on the wiki get to be included, those that are not, do not. I dont see this as a problem.

You've identified probably all the possible types of OXP author which is good.

1. OXP authors with wiki sites - autogen works, manual works
2. OXP authors who post on BB - autogen won't work, a wiki editor can manually update
3. OXP authors with websites - autogen won't work, a wiki editor can manually update
4. Other OXP authors - autogen won't work, could email wiki editor to manually update

I imagine some OXP authors who don't have wiki pages might be somewhat irritated to find they are forced to have a wiki page just to have their OXP appear in an autogenerated table but maybe I'm wrong?

And then even if they do bother to have a wiki page, then you have to click through to the wiki page and then again to get to their site?

I think if the OXP tables are too incomplete and major OXPs are not on them, then they're not going to be terribly useful.

The Wiki was, is and always will be the main source of OXP info. Without wanting to sound off-hand, an author who does not place their OXP on the Wiki really doesn't/shouldn't expect it to be well publicised or well known.
Commander James is absolutely right on this point, and as we seem to have volunteers willing to do the work, there is no excuse either.
Authors' websites are very useful as they can contain a lot more info than the Wiki and can have a style of their own, but I still feel that a Wiki page is important, largely for all the reasons stated above.
For what it's worth, I make sure that my OXP Wiki pages have enough info to 'sell' the OXP, and if people want more details and pictures, they can also click through to my website.
The website also has the advantage of containing details of all my OXPs in one place for convenience. I only need one 'Advert' (like the strap in my signature) to plug them all.
Both the Wiki and website pages have all the necessaries...description, screenshots, download links etc, so either one can 'deliver' the OXP to the punters. I also host the downloads on the website (a couple are also on box.net) which means that even the bigger ones (Smivs'ShipSet-HD is 38.6Mb zipped up) are available easily and from a reliable location. I fully appreciate that this is not a realistic option for all authors .
As for 'major' OXPs, I think they are all on the Wiki anyway. They don't get to be 'major' without being popular, and they won't be popular if they are not on the Wiki and no-one knows about them.

Look, I dont mean to be a dick about it. More info is good, more complete is good. I think its great that you are trying to improve the situation.
If you think a manually generated list is the best way forward, Im not going to stand in your way.

I don't think manually generated is the best way. It would be obviously preferable for the process to be fully automated then I wouldn't have to do any work.

As I said before, noone has solved the problem of autogeneration being a moot point - Mediawiki addons cannot be installed on the server. Somebody fix this problem, then let's talk about autogeneration.

And if this does get fixed, then I'm happy to look at how to do the autogeneration, but I didn't volunteer to create and maintain lots of individual wiki pages so that the autogeneration will work for OXP authors who do not have a wiki account. If someone is willing to do this, then please step forward.

Isnt the point of a wiki that we dont need a single person to do all the work. Its a collaboration tool, right?

Cmdr James wrote:

Isnt the point of a wiki that we dont need a single person to do all the work. Its a collaboration tool, right?

He, yes. I for one will go for it. It only needs a bit time to check all available templates and categories, then I'll start creating pages. It won't last forever.

And maybe Winston jumps in someday and says something along the line 'Hey folks, I've just installed the xyz extension...'.

Regarding spam - if the wiki had an easily memorable universal account eg. username: oolite password: ooliteisgreat, would that make it easy for everyone to add to/change the wiki without opening it to lots of spam?

And if a spammer still managed to mess up some pages, how hard is it for someone with wiki access to revert to an earlier version of the page?

personally, OXPs that have no or little information on the wiki available have a much higher threshold to get downloaded and installed.
A topic on the bbs may seem sufficient and can contain much more information than a single wikipage, but also contains much non-relevant information to be sifted through. Especially a dev-topic.
Depending on the complexity of an OXP, a simple DL link can suffice or several pages for sub-features may be advisable.

My suggestion to OXP authors is to maintain wiki pages for OXPs and keep them as concise as possible, also to list the bbs-topics etc as additional information sources.

It's not too much effort surely, to grant access to the few people that request it?
(half the authors of OXPs, fiction and a several enthusiast wikipedians)

Security through Obscurity is not an acceptable security model for ANY site.

*Just stating my Professional Opinion.

Cmd. Cheyd: couldn't agree more.

mcarans wrote:

And if a spammer still managed to mess up some pages, how hard is it for someone with wiki access to revert to an earlier version of the page?

By the same logic, we shouldn't have any spam filters for our email, after all, it takes very little time to figure out if something is spam.
However, if I had to go throught 100+ spams every single day, in order to actually find genuine emails, I'd soon stop using emails altogether.

And A_H, I thought the few people that requested it had already access to the wiki! ( And yes, I know. It's not immediate & sometimes it takes quite a while to get it. )