Oolite Bulletins

Diziet Sma wrote:

With several real-world economies currently having failed to learn the lesson of what happened to Germany last century, and effectively printing money hand over fist to solve current woes, an injection of game currency into the real economy would probably only contribute to the galloping hyperinflation certain nations are likely to see in the next few years..

That's an excellent point. How will the real-world economy cope with a steady (indeed growing) influx of virtual money? If game-worlds bleed money out, to avoid hyperinflation in the Great Underground Empire or wherever, will this potentially neverending stream of zorkmids into the real world cause inflation here? By constantly adding new dungeons, quests, treasure troves etc., online games are in effect constantly printing money ...

Disembodied wrote:

Diziet Sma wrote:

With several real-world economies currently having failed to learn the lesson of what happened to Germany last century, and effectively printing money hand over fist to solve current woes, an injection of game currency into the real economy would probably only contribute to the galloping hyperinflation certain nations are likely to see in the next few years..

That's an excellent point. How will the real-world economy cope with a steady (indeed growing) influx of virtual money? If game-worlds bleed money out, to avoid hyperinflation in the Great Underground Empire or wherever, will this potentially neverending stream of zorkmids into the real world cause inflation here? By constantly adding new dungeons, quests, treasure troves etc., online games are in effect constantly printing money ...

No real world body is going to recognise a currency that is owned by a game company any time soon, in any meaningful way. No right minded currency trader is going to touch game currencies. This is no more sensible that trading EVE corporation stock on AIM.

In the case you are describing, all that happens is that the exchange rate, and therefore game economy collapses. Which is likely to happen anyway, what kind of fool would invest in a game currency?

Cmdr James wrote:

No real world body is going to recognise a currency that is owned by a game company any time soon, in any meaningful way. No right minded currency trader is going to touch game currencies. This is no more sensible that trading EVE corporation stock on AIM.

In the case you are describing, all that happens is that the exchange rate, and therefore game economy collapses. Which is likely to happen anyway, what kind of fool would invest in a game currency?

it's not a question of recognising or trading or investing in a game currency – it's the fact that there is already a way to turn virtual "gold" into real money. The virtual "gold" has a real-world value. But there's a neverending supply of "gold", unconnected in any way to actual resources. It's never going to run out: in fact, it's in the interest of the game company to perpetually create it, to reward players and keep giving them something to do. In effect, it's the score. To prevent this perpetual stream of money causing in-game hyperinflation, it's in their interest to take it out of the game-world. If they do this by bleeding it into the real world ... hmm. I suppose you're right: the real-world value of "gold" should drop.

What's required, then, is a way to erase treasure from a game without letting it fall into the real world. But players will still want something in return. It'll have to be something intangible, like titles of nobility. Or divine favour: sacrificing treasure would be a way of getting it out of the game, in return for something that would be of benefit to the player in the game but which (theoretically, anyway) couldn't be sold on.

Disembodied wrote:

But players will still want something in return. It'll have to be something intangible, like titles of nobility. Or divine favour: sacrificing treasure would be a way of getting it out of the game, in return for something that would be of benefit to the player in the game but which (theoretically, anyway) couldn't be sold on.

You mean, score points? Like in a traditional game

Cmdr James wrote:

You mean, score points? Like in a traditional game

Yes ... essentially it's just an incredibly long-winded and complicated equivalent of putting your three initials up on the leaderboard for all the world (or all the chip shop, at least) to see. And one that costs quite a lot more than 10p.

Disembodied wrote:

Cmdr James wrote:

You mean, score points? Like in a traditional game

Yes ... essentially it's just an incredibly long-winded and complicated equivalent of putting your three initials up on the leaderboard for all the world (or all the chip shop, at least) to see. And one that costs quite a lot more than 10p.

and then we move into...

Stat padding... , there is no end to the grief...

Cmdr James wrote:

Right, like I already agreed, people will pay for stuff, ringtones, skins, content unlocks and so on. They will even pay for a collectors edition with a different coloured box. This surprises noone.

The only question I have ever attempted to raise is if people should pay real money for game-money or to progress (pay to cheat).

If you send me 10 pounds and your oolite savegame, I will change the number of kills you have, and save you grinding to elite. Sound like a good plan?

Whether they should? They already do, the player with the money to buy a system can already gain advantages over players with lesser hardware. Viewing distances, "lag" issues etc etc.

In Lotro with the "standard" game you cant buy a horse until you get to level 35. Until then you were stuck on your own two feet or the rent-a-wrecks.

Until the *"gold edition" was released, which came in a fancy metal box, and allowed all the toons with that cd key to get a horse at level 25. Giving them an advantage over normal players. Many current players myself included felt that was well worth paying out for! even if their main toons were well past level 35 future levelling would be less cumbersome.

In Star Wars galaxies they released a special retail pack, which was the first time the game added instant transport vehicles, a way to move from just about anywhere to any starport on the planet, an absolute godsend, at launch only available to those with a retail key for the special edition. The rest were stuck with slow transport.

Eventually the devs caved and added ways for other players to obtain the same functionality

So officially sanctioned game advantages are already paid for with real life cash.

As far as cheating goes, its only cheating if its against the rules.

If its just a different business model then its not cheating. If part of how the game is funded is by buying in game currency - alas second life then its NOT cheating. Its personal choice.

All of these services:-

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q= ... ling&meta=

Show even when its against the rules people will pay to skip "work".

Because to some people the destination is worth more than the journey. They want to do the high level stuff, without bothering to do the low level stuff.

Especially in mmorpgs where some people feel a degree of prestige to be a level 80 mage or whatever.

It comes down to player type really. What you look to get out of a game. Some people love the instant gratification bragging rights, even if they havent in truth got much to brag about...

*I cant actually remember the name of that special edition

But the root of what I thought I was arguing against was a free market of in-game cash in the real world, and the ability to buy your way out of grind.

People do is not the same as people should. Examples might include rape and murder

Why do you keep linking to gold farming and levelling services and so on? Do you think I (we?) are not aware of these things? I assume you think I am some kind of luddite, living in a pre-mmo world?

I have no argument with the fact it is possible, and that linden, and others have created at least part of what you seem to want. My argument is around this being a good model (good of course is subjective). I have real serious doubts about in-game currency in the real world as anything more than a curiosity. I accept some people do make a (real world) living in Second Life, and indeed farmers in WoW, but I do not regard that as evidence that the currencies can be truely regarded as viable.

At the end of the day, why would you even want to use an in-game currency and have all the issues. Why not just use dollars (or Euro, or sterling, whatever) in game if thats what you want?

Do you have that oolite savegame ready? Ill do you a deal, only 5 pounds, and you get to be elite, AND you get another million Cr. Nothing in the oolite rules against it, so it isnt cheating

ClymAngus wrote:

Well true, the ultimate fix would be to inhibit pVp play. Thus forcing co-operation. Or a much reduced ability to damage other players that would allow escape. If you created a Humans vs all other life forms (Human's = endangered species). Then weapon inhibitors could be justifiable. You could even make a trivial game of it. Psychopaths are relegated to point scoring, causing no "real" damage.

Doesn't work. This means the majority of kids won't pay for the game. (More like won't steal their parents' credit cards to pay for the game) Then the company loses most of its income flow, and goes bankrupt.

Sad, but true. In this world there are no easy solutions.

Davidtq wrote:

All of these services:-

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q= ... ling&meta=

Show even when its against the rules people will pay to skip "work".

Because to some people the destination is worth more than the journey. They want to do the high level stuff, without bothering to do the low level stuff.

Especially in mmorpgs where some people feel a degree of prestige to be a level 80 mage or whatever.

It comes down to player type really. What you look to get out of a game. Some people love the instant gratification bragging rights, even if they havent in truth got much to brag about...

Well, I play WoW (but semi-quit as of half a year ago), and the truth is that only people who actually spent the time levelling slowly to 80 know how to play their character. You learn as you grind, but many don't realize that, and look for the easy way out. They end up with nothing to brag about, but brag anyway, because that's what people with insecurities in real life do.

As for Cmdr James, I have one word to say: Barter. Barter is probably more powerful as an agent of MMOs than in-game currencies. I may sound a bit off-tangent here, it's midnight and I had a long day x.x

Countless items are bartered for real world currency. Different, of course, from exchanging in-game currency. Although it produces similar effects.

To be honest, I didnt really want to get into this, and Ive stated my piece, so Im going to leave it at this.

I dont believe there will be, or should be anything along the lines of in-game currencies traded in the real world in anything like the manner that real currencies are.

I think, as overmage said, paying to avoid grinding can be a missed opportunity, and other than a revenue stream of the companies, I dont think its generally a good model.

But thats me, Im out of this thread

Disembodied wrote:

Cmdr James wrote:

No real world body is going to recognise a currency that is owned by a game company any time soon, in any meaningful way. No right minded currency trader is going to touch game currencies. This is no more sensible that trading EVE corporation stock on AIM.

In the case you are describing, all that happens is that the exchange rate, and therefore game economy collapses. Which is likely to happen anyway, what kind of fool would invest in a game currency?

it's not a question of recognising or trading or investing in a game currency – it's the fact that there is already a way to turn virtual "gold" into real money. The virtual "gold" has a real-world value. But there's a neverending supply of "gold", unconnected in any way to actual resources. It's never going to run out: in fact, it's in the interest of the game company to perpetually create it, to reward players and keep giving them something to do. In effect, it's the score. To prevent this perpetual stream of money causing in-game hyperinflation, it's in their interest to take it out of the game-world. If they do this by bleeding it into the real world ... hmm. I suppose you're right: the real-world value of "gold" should drop.

What's required, then, is a way to erase treasure from a game without letting it fall into the real world. But players will still want something in return. It'll have to be something intangible, like titles of nobility. Or divine favour: sacrificing treasure would be a way of getting it out of the game, in return for something that would be of benefit to the player in the game but which (theoretically, anyway) couldn't be sold on.

The "gold" reserves may be "unlimited" but theres labour involved in gaining it limiting its supply at current.

If the Devs started selling gold to end the problems of non sanctioned gold farming they could also start "buying it back" at a lower rate than they sell it, by allowing gamers to cash in their game currency for subscription time or for a reduction in their subs costs.

Hence taking control of the currently illegitimate market for game currency as well as creating a way to control deflation. Because they buy for less than they sell in cash terms, they should still end up making more money, as well as slowing inflation. At the moment every penny spent with gold farmers is income the devs could have had instead. Their customers will spend anyway, and be exposed to fraud risks doing so. They can tap this income stream and protect their customers and put a damper of inflation at once.

The people buying the gold will doubtlessly be spending it with people who dont buy gold, who would rather be spending less real world cash. My reasoning behind this, is that those willing to work (in game) for a reward are likelly to be the ones with a continous stream of products to sell. The ones who would rather work on RL and buy their way through the game will doubtlessly be the biggest consumers. Hence the brought gold flows back to where it started, the devs.

Whilst I realise that many people object to the idea of other people not getting the same out of a game as them, different people look for different things from the same game. Whilst I have never been a PvP fan I recognise that for some people that is there sole reason for playing... Why not open up options for more people to choose their play style.

The players who choose not to buy gold now need never do so later, the players who object to the idea of buying game time discounts with their game currency need never do so.

overmage wrote:

Doesn't work. This means the majority of kids won't pay for the game. (More like won't steal their parents' credit cards to pay for the game) Then the company loses most of its income flow, and goes bankrupt.

Sad, but true. In this world there are no easy solutions.

I don't know, it was one of the main stays of fantasy star online and since sony stopped supporting it the pirate servers have been carrying on regardless.

You'd be amazed at the loyalty of a small but fervent audience. I would see it as more of a filter anyway. Games for players, object lessons in spite for the spiteful and never the twain should meet.

Cmdr James wrote:

But the root of what I thought I was arguing against was a free market of in-game cash in the real world, and the ability to buy your way out of grind.

People do is not the same as people should. Examples might include rape and murder

Why do you keep linking to gold farming and levelling services and so on? Do you think I (we?) are not aware of these things? I assume you think I am some kind of luddite, living in a pre-mmo world?

I have no argument with the fact it is possible, and that linden, and others have created at least part of what you seem to want. My argument is around this being a good model (good of course is subjective). I have real serious doubts about in-game currency in the real world as anything more than a curiosity. I accept some people do make a (real world) living in Second Life, and indeed farmers in WoW, but I do not regard that as evidence that the currencies can be truely regarded as viable.

At the end of the day, why would you even want to use an in-game currency and have all the issues. Why not just use dollars (or Euro, or sterling, whatever) in game if thats what you want?

Do you have that oolite savegame ready? Ill do you a deal, only 5 pounds, and you get to be elite, AND you get another million Cr. Nothing in the oolite rules against it, so it isnt cheating

Theres already a market for the cash buying and selling for RL money, I personally wouldnt trust devs anywhere near it as a sanctioned form of currency on a par with sterling etc. Although its technically possible to invest in that way now, I wouldnt see it as a realistic business proposition, I wouldnt see games devs as being up to banking and global finance. I think small scale buying and selling is fine for RL cash.

As far as buying the way out of the grind, I was talking about the grind for cash, which is normally quite seperate to the level grind. Ive never found Ive ever earnt enough cash along the way to max level to cover all I want along the way.

I hadnt actually considered cash for levels... But as its been mentioned, why not - £2.50 a level? I wouldnt pay it myself, Im an explorer type, I personally enjoy looking under every rock and stone. But If someone has more money than sense and their play style doesnt include enjoying the world to its full why not lighten their pockets at the same time as supporting their play style. its a "win, win" scenario.

The reason for linking is just to show that forms of what Im talking about already happen. The current enforcement situation isnt working hasnt worked and as far as I can see never will work. theres a market, theres money to be made. The devs could tap this market for income and support their players ability to choose their play style. No ones going to lose except the gold farmers, the devs get a nice extra slice of income, and players dont get scammed. They get to play the game "their way" they get whatever reward it is they get from gaming that way - as they do at the moment.

Im with you in the camp that game currency isnt of a quality to be treated as a countries currency. However I dont see a problem with devs legitimizing and taking control of the market for bought currency or for people to buy items, upgrades, content etc that isnt available in any other way.

I dont see a problem with moving away from the current flat fee subscription and funding purely on these voluntary purchases. I think it could be a lucrative way to run a game.

I do believe that this subscription free way will slowly replace the current subscription gaming setup. Whether or not the microtransactions involved will include purchasing of game currency or level ups(unlikely) Im unsure. But I am fairly sure that microtransaction purchases and no subscription is the future for mmorpgs.

Davidtq wrote:

I wouldnt see games devs as being up to banking and global finance.

I don't see banks and governments as being up to banking and global finance, if it comes to that.

I think a lot of problems seem to stem from level-grinding. Is it necessary to create "levels"? Is this not just a hangover from a ropey piece of game design by TSR back in the 1970s? Sure, it gives players a little psychological boost every now and then, but ... what else is it good for?

Personally, I think people should get better at a game by playing it, not by serving time in it. Okay, as they play they'll accumulate more and better stuff, but the level-grinding seems just to be an invitation to trouble, as well as a duff piece of design.

Disembodied wrote:

Davidtq wrote:

I wouldnt see games devs as being up to banking and global finance.

I don't see banks and governments as being up to banking and global finance, if it comes to that.

I think a lot of problems seem to stem from level-grinding. Is it necessary to create "levels"? Is this not just a hangover from a ropey piece of game design by TSR back in the 1970s? Sure, it gives players a little psychological boost every now and then, but ... what else is it good for?

Personally, I think people should get better at a game by playing it, not by serving time in it. Okay, as they play they'll accumulate more and better stuff, but the level-grinding seems just to be an invitation to trouble, as well as a duff piece of design.

I agree on that absolutely and completely. On banks, governments and levels

I think character levels are absolute nonsense. I think the difference in strength between a "level 1" and "level 10" are poor representations of the dithering experience gained. Rather than a character gaining XP a player should be gaining experience. Im fine with granting ranks but not with ranks determining strength and ability.

Take oolite for example it doesnt matter a jot whether you are elite or harmless its YOUR skill that determines the result of combat, You can give an "elite" player a harmless jameson and they will still outfly the enemy, you can give a new player an elite save game but it wont make one jot of difference to how they fair. Equipment does and should play a roll but the "rank" given doesnt determine your sucess or failure at all. To me thats how it should be.

I am of the opinion that for example a sword should be able to be used by any character. The idea of a sword that cant be picked up and thrust in a certain direction because someone isnt "high enough level" is nonsense. I think the idea that "this mithril sword" does 130x as much damage as "this iron sword" is also ridiculous what really should matter is how good the player behind it is.

Theres many things out there that I think are poorly designed.

Star Wars Galaxies at one time didnt have character levels, you gained pistol experience by using pistols rifle experience by using rifles, sword experience by using swords etc etc, you then chose to train different specials in these areas, and what weapon you used coupled with what special you used determined your damage. No levels involved.

Whilst that wasnt quite player skill determines all, it was a step away from the level system. A player could choose to specialise or be a jack of all trades. There were no "classes" there was a pool of skill points that you spent as you wanted building up any mixed template of specials you wanted.

Alas the game was released a year early completely unfinished the lead designer moved on at launch and the system had HUGE bugs, Eventually they gave up on trying to make it all work properly and balance it all and brought in a level system, which was largelly hated by the player base. Even after the level system was brought in people could still choose how to distribute their points and have mixed templates etc. But that meant people still sought PvP power by figuring out which templates added up to the most power, then there was crying and they scrapped the whole idea of freedom of choice and came up with 9 standard classes... And wondered why their playerbase dissapeared. Shame the original design was actually a good solid idea and stepped well away from the standard level system.

Unfotunately it was the PvP crowd whining about balance taht brought it all to an end. I had what was considered a weak template, I DIDNT CARE I enjoyed the play style it was my own style. when it came to PvE I could manage it all it might take me longer than the power seekers but that was fine. I enjoyed the style it was unique and my own. Desgined to suit the way I wanted to play.