Space MMORPG (more or less Oolite style) in the planning

[Katharsis]

If that´s the last word of the community it would be a poor one ...

[Davidtq]

I think the project is a massive one, and I think quite seperate to the "true" oolite direction which is as it should be a modern open interpretation of the original elite. I wouldnt want to see the original oolite suffer for chasing the dream of multiplayer. (anyone who knows better should feel free to correct my grossly uninformed assumptions)

I can see the attraction in "wanting to have a go" but I have seen a lot of "have a go" ideas, that die a death when someone central burns out - which is a very good reason for me not to be involved. Im not reliable in how I spend my limited spare time. But I fully support anyone wanting to have a go themselves, from an armchair position .

I can theoretically see that oolite being "procedural" in its generating of a world around a player ship (as opposed to a fully fixed world in which the player merely wonders) renders it difficult to turn into multiplayer. from the start the game is based around a world that is generated on the fly around the one player.

I can see that trying to untie the games 3d engine from its procedural roots and trying to instead run of a dynamic database is effectively a rewrite of the entire code.

That said Im more than happy enough to sit back and throw (probably very misinformed) ideas in the ring, just not to roll up my shirt sleaves and get stuck in on a multi person project where me being tied up for weeks on end is going to be a delay for other people. Ive got a wife and 4 kids, and I can be a real wanderer in what I do with my spare time, Id hate to feel people depended on me completing something...

Katharsis, with what little I know of oolite, the way I would approach this is to download the code and "see" if you can figure out how it interacts with 3rd party oxp scripts. At the same time I would download OXPs that do stuff kind of like you would want, adding particular items in particular places outside of the "normal" seed and random generation of a system, particularly how it handles spawning new objects - like extra stations for the random hits mission, like the tionisla graveyard and see if you can rewrite the code to look to a "db" for "dynamic" ship types to spawn? to see how you could make it spawn from a database instead of a oxp'script, This isnt much practical use for final multiplayer code but its a project you can do to get the feel for the code, and to get very basic interaction with a DB. This would NOT however as far as I know give repeatable results to two seperate systems, once you have managed to spawn a list of ships and objects from a database within the system how those objects behaved would be down to the AI, which most likely includes some degree of rolling random numbers (purely guessing there) and so dithering from scenario to the next.

I would really recommend looking closely at the oxps that do add static and repeatable features to the systems, and how they manage to get the data in beside the normal procedural generation and random population.

The guys here who actually do the coding know it very well, I believe that the code as it stands isnt based around "set world" and so at any one time there is only one "system" in existance, when you are in lave there is only lave existant in the whole game. leesti, does not exist in the code anywhere (as far as I know) leesti is not being held in memory leesti is not being processed, there is no leesti, until you hyperspace in and it gets generated procedurally there and then from the seed. That I would think is what you are up against. The system has very limited "set" data, and even that is not actually set as such... All the systems "set data" is in itself as far as I know procedurally generated from a short seed, this data is not random its procedural the results are the same every time, but its not stored as data. Its calculated from seed mathematically, it gives a feel of consistancy whilst not actually carrying data (sheer genius at the time of elites release) the actual population and running of a system I believe would be semi random on entering the system - the system does not exist until you arrive.

I would guess the system generation process rolls some pseudo random numbers and does some maths based off the procedurally generated system data and off the fixed ship roles \ type to determine what gets put in the system and where with what roles. This is done on a random basis from a procedural generated data set, which means consistancy across a universe simply doesnt exist, the engine is based completely around this principle of on the fly generation of both system and population.

IF (as I believe the x series games work) the other systems in the game did "exist" mathematically - (rather than fully realised) when the player wasnt there then you would probably find it easier to start redirecting data and hijacking object spawning, but oolite as far as I know doesnt actually have any system data apart from the current system, and that is "made" up on the spot, determined by random number roles on the players computer, completely unique to that one system.

This would actually I think be a step forward from the original elite where I believe enemy ships were spawned "on the hoof" rather than all being generated when you arrived in the system - as I believe it is in oolite. I believe (and I may be wrong) that in the original elite enemies did not exist in any sense until they were spawned (randomly modified by planetary data) around you as you flew. In oolite I believe the system is populated and the ships give their roles and AI as you enter the system.

[ClymAngus]

If that´s the last word of the community it would be a poor one ...

It's not a last word, it's a challenge. MM's never end. If your not up to the fight at the beginning, then what hope is there for the future.

To make is as simple as it is to destroy. To maintain, there is the mark of true deadication and passion. There have been many makers on the internet but precious few maintainers.

Identify a need is the key. A useful MM app would be networking over a local group. Embellish the unique, don't hemogenise it.

[Lestradae]

I'd say, Katharsis, if you feel up to it, don't ask for reward here nor for criticism, just go forward and do it, have a look into the Oolite code, and find out if it seems to be doable for you or if not.

I, for one, would find a MM version of Oolite or even a "mixed" version (certain systems per galactic sector MM, others not, as someone suggested) very interesting and would very probably play that (and I have consciously decided against EVE and for Oolite, myself, btw)

There will, if you, Katharsis, successfully create an MM version, no doubt be a lot of people who will like it and play it.

There will no doubt also be a lot of people who won't like it, criticise it and not play it.

It's yours' to decide alone.

Cheers

L

[Davidtq]

I dont embrace the idea that mmorpg's have to be about "pwnage" or 12 year old kiddies on power trips. Personally I prefer the social element the cooperative element. I enjoy exploring game systems, seeing what makes them tick, how they work how they do this that or the other etc. My bartle test comes out like this Explorer 100.00%, Achiever 53.33%, Socializer 33.33%, Killer 13.33%, .

I have a history of playing mmorpg's with real life family - 9 gamers in the family, we arent sat there trying to whoop one another we arent even banding together to hand out a whooping to others.

I like co-operative play, the more open, sand boxy and diverse the better. my principle playing partner is my wife, competetive games would be a BAD idea because "winning" might mean "losing out" .

I like beating the computer, but I like doing it with friends... Where strategy amongst the human players working together wins through.

None of my favourite memories of mmorpg involve PvP or rare loot. One of my favourite mmorpgs was star wars galaxies, my favourite toon there was a droid engineer and furniture maker, and pilot, he NEVER ever took part in space PvP, and spent most of his time "decorating" buildings. Abusing the limited furniture available in game to create things like this:-







Creating things like this and getting the feedback from other players as you gave them a guided tour was a great "mmorpg" experience, no "win" or "defeat" involved. Sure you can do it over forums and theres soem thorough back slapping involved for unique ships etc, but I think theres far more potential for "depth" of the shared experience with an mmorpg.

heres another snapshot of mmorpg action :-



This was a cross server get together of droid engineers where we got together to experiment and number crunch on droid effectiveness. Team work lots of fun and interaction no "winning" involved, well amost none :-

I think the jedi we used as a guinea pig got a little beat up - entirely voluntarily though

Those buildings? no they arent static scenery they were part of a player created city every building every park created and placed by players, working together to create a city which added up to more than the sum of its parts. No "winning" no dungeon raiding etc etc. Not even "winning" over the computer, it was group creativity, group trouble shooting, group exploration.

Star wars galaxies also had multiplayer ships where players could band together to crew a large ship each with their own roles working together against the either the computer or other players if that was their choice. It was a great experience putting together a crew, gunners in turrets, a pilot, a mechanic ( you actually had plasma leaks to repair \ visual damage etc), a systems engineer balancing power systems keeping on top of the demands of the gunners, the shields and the pilots need for speed whilst making sure the reactor didnt overload leaving you dead in the void each playing their part to help the whole crew, no "individual" reward no beating one another just good fun together in real time.

How cool is it walking around the inside of a space ship with other real human beings? very very cool . Especially if its a ship you built and customised \ decorated yourself...

Alas they had no space trading, it was just manual mining or combat, which is a big shame really .

I do want a space mmorpg which has space trading of elite (although preferably something with far more and depth than we have so far - preferably 10's of thousands of different products rather than the generics we have had so far - something more dark wheel like I like the idea of shannsilk furst and frozen bladderlash etc, yes we can make up our stories for now, but how great would it be if the game supported them directly. Id love to be able to get off ship and wander around the space bar talking to other pilots, Id love to take a trip planet side, to "see" those blue felines, etc etc, to poke round inside a cobra mk 3s cabin to wander around a cargo bay etc etc. I would love to be able to run escort for another player through a pirate infested system, go on a joint bounty hunting session etc etc. Theres far more potential than just "dualling". I dont believe that a multiplayer oolite can give all of that, but a space mmorpg does have that potential.

I believe that mmorpgs DO have massive potential to be something other than an extended playground chest beating session.

I believe that mmorpgs CAN be a more complete experience than any classical artistic mediums, Paintings? They say a picture is worth a thousand words, well how about 60 pictures a second, thats the equivalent of 216,000,000 words an hour . a living tapestry moving of its own volition powered by the intents and persuasions of thousands of humans. music and song? an mmorpg can have a sound track as rich as any music created for other mediums, whats more it can be hours of immersion the depth amplified by accompaning thousands of hours of experience dynamically changing to suit the experience of the player. Ive actually been part of mmorpg bands, creating music within the game. Written Story? Instead of a book taking a day or two to read where you savour an experience second hand a mmorpg CAN put YOU in the story you write your own part, your fellow cast writing their own as they go, the story unique to each and every player not handed down by a single dictator author. My favourite parts of mmorpgs are not following scripted quests normally less well crafted than a good book, but in following my own path doing things outside the expectations of the developers. Poetry? offers a second hand glimpse of another persons emotion maybe finding resonance in their own experience, an mmorpg is a living breathing changing experience, the emotion your own, the experience your own choice, but with the freedom of sharing experience with others not just in recall but in real time as it happens.

MMorpgs are in their infancy WoW (which I dont rate highly) is an early example. Yes theres a lot of focus on PvP by many game designers as corporations try to find the best way to make money out of this medium. But the medium itself has far more potential as far as Im concerned than single player games. One of the great things about mmorpgs is that they can rise above and beyond their original designers intentions the more open the designer makes a game the more chance for combined creativity.

Elite vies with Star Wars Galaxies for my favourite all time games, Galaxies marred by its post release development decisions and general buggyness and elite elevated by its amazing advancement in its day, it took a hold when I was young so will always hold a special place. The amazing ingenuity of its programming still holds respect even though modern games can trounce the original in terms of variety of game play and technology. What they can't do is hold a candle to how far out elite stood from its peers back at first release.

I dont actually believe that oolite has what it takes to be all that I would want from an mmorpg

What do I see coming from a multiplayer oolite? It could be good fun, I would quite enjoy running escort for my wife through riedquat etc. Theres a lot of balance stuff needed though for multi players, its currently balanced at one player, and one player can normamly tear through groups of superior armed opponents. Groups are not necesary - although the idea is sound in my opinion.

As far as eve goes, Ive not tried it, as soon as I heard there was no joystick control and that I couldnt fly by the seats of my pants I was disinterested. Oolite is great as a single player game, I think a multiplayer would give added interest particularly given the interest in co operative play in my household.

[Davidtq]

Also worth mentioning if you want to develop an mmorpg you need a thick skin, no one comes in for as much consistant heckling from the consumers as mmorpg developers.

[DaddyHoggy]

A very thoughtful and well balanced posting (and possibly the longest (non-story) posting the forum has ever seen.)

If there was a MMORPG version of Oolite I would certainly take the time to investigate - of course at that point it it would no longer be Oolite (perhaps MmOolite?) - I think the content adding of the standard game will go on for sometime and in the meantime another group of enthusiasts will come, talk about a MMORPG version of E/Oolite, and then the idea will fade away again, to lie dormant but not forgotten for months or even years...

[Master Bates]

In terms of lines, the complete list of planets in the Vector Map thread was longer, I think.

Anyway, wouldn't creating an Oolite MMO basically require rewriting literally the entire game from scratch, line by line? It wasn't exactly designed with multiplayer in mind. And that's not even getting into the potential legal problems - what if Braben's planning an Elite MMO after Elite 4 is released sometime in the next few centuries? We already know he's not exactly a keen supporter of fanmade projects, and any completed Oolite MMO project probably wouldn't last long before a takedown notice was issued.

[Davidtq]

moi talk too much, yeah probably

I believe elite 4 was originally slated as being both mmo and single player,

Im not entirely sure but I think the X-series developers were making mmo noises as well.

Whilst I like the MMORPG concept I suspect Oolite will still be found on one of my computers when Braben gets round to release the alleged mmo Elite 4.

Oolite has kind of taken the place of the original (my original was the spectrum elite) Elite for me in my old games playing fits, it gives me the same play style (I use pitch\ roll) does everything the old one did for me and more on top, its got the original game with better graphics and more open style. I hang on to old games for a LONG time, Ive got a pc with the old x-wing games etc on, Ive got PC and amiga versions of FE2, Ive got wing commander privateer etc etc Old games never really lose their appeal for me.

I dont think even a "perfect" (to my ideals) official elite 4 mmo would stop me going back to playing older games from time to time. Theres hard disk space to spare .

Thats just given me another wishlist idea for elite 4, an in game "simulator" minigame, somewhere in the mmorpg you go into a building within the station and jump in an "arcade machine" where you get to play "modernised" old versions of elite, same old game play but with modernised graphics...

Just give the arcade machines a old school top 10 hall of fame and see how many punters are spending their money on a subscription trying to bag a top 10 on a mini game within a game

As far as "copyright" goes, any commercial elite-a-like mmo would have to steer well clear of models based on the original ships and any "elite" like names or else they WOULD be nuked pretty quick. I think the technical hurdles would need overcoming before worrying about potential Elite copyright infringe. I could see the challenge of accomplishing what is rumoured to be close to impossible is reason enough in itself to make the attempt, regardless of any real use for the end results Thats possibly just me though, and this isnt a windmill Im particularly enclined to tackle, more time required than I have to spare... Im a patient type I can sit back and wait for a full commercial game with far more polish than I could ever hope to achieve.

Its not as if Im struggling to find ways to fill my spare time, Im not exactly starved for choice of space games to play But Im happy enough to try out new games.

I cant see it taking much to reverse out the elite like models and replace them with home made role filling versions for copyright reasons if the multiplayer technical side was cracked (as huge an effort as it is).

I could also see it possible for a fan made mod to include original ships... Just like star wars ships mods for both oolite and the X-series.

[ClymAngus]

In terms of lines, the complete list of planets in the Vector Map thread was longer, I think.

Yeah, I should get back to that instead of mouthing off. sorry.....

[overmage]

I dont embrace the idea that mmorpg's have to be about "pwnage" or 12 year old kiddies on power trips.

Amen to that!

I'm a forum moderator on a WoW server. (Nothing in-game)

I joined when it was still small and tightly-knit. Yes we had a few bragfests and all but it was all in good fun and the real joy in playing came from the bonds we shared in the community.

Now the server has bloated to nearly a thousand players at any one time and it's just not the same anymore it's now full of twelve-year olds coming to you, killing you and yelling LOL PWNED NOOB (or you killing a twelve-year old and that twelve-year old yelling L2P NOOB). All they're concerned about are two things: who pwns who, and who has the biggest E-Peen on the interwebz. None of this guild camaraderie nonsense, I R TEH BEST ON TEH SERVER KTHX!

[Cmdr Wyvern]

I believe an mmo Oolite would fail, and rather swiftly.
Why?

Oolite is easily hackable. It's all too easy to hack up a personal ubership and give yourself creds out the wazoo. Add to that the aforementioned scriptkiddies on an ego fest, and soon all you'll have is cheating, ego-happy 12 year old munchkins playing it.

Personally, I avoid mmos like a plague, especially the pay-to-play commercial games. Griefing trolls make them absolutely not worth the trouble.

[Selezen]

I hate MMOGs with a passion. I played EverQuest for a week, Dark Age Of Camelot for a month (longer cos it was a myth/legend I liked) and EVE online for 3 days. Hate em all.

All that level chasing, camping bad guys, having to team up with kiddies and so on just gets boring very quickly.

Anyway, personal opinions aside, if The People want an MMOG Oolite then it would be interesting to see. If you want to get away from the kids and their silliness, stick some adult content in it and make it a registration only 18+ game. 80% of the players are over 18 (and the majority of them are over 35!) so I don't think we would lose much in the target demographic.

[Katharsis]

Hi Selezen,

OhMyDog - Now Thats a good Idea !

I will keep that in mind !!!


Greets
Katharsis

[DaddyHoggy]

Poor FSONeblin - the lad is only 13...