Griff vs. Triangles

[Killer Wolf]

"I have yanks over here telling me that Chobham is so last century"

?!

[DaddyHoggy]

@Simon B - not really much to add re: armour other than the obvious stuff - very angular is probably quite good - especially head on (i.e. the Anaconda) since this increase the effective path length the laser must travel through before it penetrates the ship's interior.

Since we're mostly using lasers then to be honest I'd be going for flawlessly smooth and shiny hull exteriors or failing that ejecting huge clouds of small shiny glass beads or the like which would reflect and scatter and generally disperse the laser energy - even if lots of them gets vaporised that still takes energy out of the beam.

And although the shield technology behind E/Oolite is never fully explained the old "tuning the shield frequencies" (ala ST:TNG et al) might also work if the shield frequency harmonic was set to be in exact anti-phase to the wave of the laser (very difficult as both objects would tend to be moving and doppler shift would occur, plus all lasers have some inherent frequency spread since the atoms themselves are whizzing around in the chamber)

And finally, Chobham is very much so last century since it was indeed created about 2/3rd the way through the 20th! (but since both the M1A1/2 Abrahms and the UK CR2 use the latest variant of it - it is also very much this century too!)

[Simon B]

The lasers get used a lot don't they?

Basically, they are more economical than missiles or mines. Of course, an E-Bomb is cheaper than ejecting.

Mirrors are popular SF canon against lasers - but any laser capable of punching through steel plate is not going to be affected by a shiny surface. Ablative material is better.... and just putting a lot of mass between you and the weapon.

Shields are very tricky - and normal EMag capable of scattering a combat laser will probably harm the defenders as well. Though, I gather you can do a lot with ionized gas clouds.

We can see the OOlite laser beams. Which means that the ooniverse is extremely dusty. Regular laser-beams cannot be seen... but it makes for better gameplay.

Highly reactive systems should be able to adjust the shield frequencies to the incoming beam, optimizing scatter nanoseconds after initial contact. The lasers themselves will be tuned to warble their frequency a bit to evade this. The resulting conflict could be very draining on the shield capacitors for the duration of the contact.

Fun, isn't it?

[ZygoUgo]

Haloo again, followed that link in some quiet moments and went on an interesting journey bumping about in cyber space, here's a small note on what I gathered;
The idea of a Chobham style armour is only relevant to the early ships designs if their initial problems with and defending against the first space pirates involved the same weapons that died out with the vehicles that carried that type of armour, IE the demise of the Tank and the weapons designed for peircing them.

Chobham likes to be struck from face on as this minimises the area of damage to the ceramic encased inside, a strike at an angle enough to pierce will send its energy along the ceramic shattering it and reducing the armours' energy disrupting strength permanently in that area. Being flat helps avoid this effect.
This does though I think fit in with the ships designs as attacks from the front/sides would be skittered off into space and the damage from strikes above and behind minimised by the Chobham makeup.
I read a couple of interesting articles from people attached to the MOD on the the advancement of mobility and the Attack Helicopter, and in respect the gradual irrelevance of large heavy tank strikes/battle fronts.
Tanks and air based combat are military eventualities that would be developed (in there abouts forms) by any land based warring species (considering if vehicles are an eventuality), tanks and their heavy armours becoming the least strategically viable due to their bond with the landscape and its obstacles, and the growth of the freedom of the air.
Next comes the advent of classified lasers (in our case this would be the pulse laser), and it is around this point in histOory we are established in space.
For a while lighter armours continue to develope and change to become energy sheilding according to the weapons designed to defeat them (all remains classified), now the first trade begins in space as the governments organise their grip on the great void, these early 'public' vehicles are relatively tinfoil and frame-work in comparison to what we have now.
Piracy incidents become sparodic occurances, arming themselves from the blackmarket (there is at this point plenty of disbanded automatic/armour peircing equipment), their victims begin to do the same.
People die, precious cargo is lost.
The pirates respond by armouring their ships in crude manners to maintain their advantage, the governments response is to declassify the armours that have become irrelevant to their forces needs in a desperate attempt to maintain an 'economic' grip on the balance, but it is not long before this gaffa tape solution organises the criminals as well as the public, giving them both solid and capable vehicles and demanding the highly expensive and panicked throwing together of GalCop.
They are quickly designed a policing vehicle with the outdated tank armour, but also equipped with a low strength version of the classified energy sheilding to give them their advantage, hence the first Vipers also being of the same geometrical design, but at this time armed with heavy armour peircing machine guns/cannons and reasonably advanced rocket systems.
The armour after its many years in stasis begins to evolve again, but without military fervour or funding, never really steps away from its neccesity to remain in flat plates, gradually as the pulse laser is surpassed and declassified (and energy sheilding takes over) it becomes just a symbol of that first era in space.
The core Oolite ships are the end of this era, and although their armour is much more advanced than the tanks who originally bore it, they are no longer built in these materials.
However, the history these stylings signify ryle sentimentality in some hearts, and respect in others.
Because of this even newer ships can be seen to bear retro echoes in their design, and some go as far to salute to the land based and long gone tank by wearing its camouflage, without which, order in those systems that have acheived it would have cost many more lives.
The battle goes on.

That's kind of where I've got to thinking about it so far, but there does remain the question of why all the species are at very similar levels of technology, sharing by the majority of species? A blanket seeding of advancement across the galaxy by a more advanced race?
The Thargoids?

[Simon B]

Perhaps there was an anti-laser armour based on a newer ceramic which also benifits from being hit square on. Cambat ships are thin to make narrow targets. They wear cam to break up their outlines against space - like snow-cam is not just white and tigers are bright orange to hide in green jungles...

(In practice - stars are not common enough in oolite for stellar occlusion to be an important way to locate dark-colored ships. One of my most invisible ships is deep-red with matt-black leopard spots.)

WH40K (original) had an interesting idea that the early Imperium had expanded by sending out large automated factory ships in advance of colony sleeper ships. Their job was to prepare for the colonists arrival.

Some of these factories arrived on worlds with a pre or low tech society on them. This resulted in rapid development for the tribe or nation first visited and an adoption of Terran norms for technology.

This allowed players to adapt pre-existing miniatures by utilizing extra weapons and equipment supplied with space-marine packs and others.

Perhaps the ooniverse is dominated by a particular species to develop spaceflight early? Probably the "snake" designs are so common across species because they are in the public domain. The less common designs are all proprietary + trade/state secret.

Perhaps new spacecraft technology has a significant adoption bump?

An interesting alternative is that witchspace craft design and construction is a dying art. AI-Shipyards mostly just patch the old ships or churn out yet more copies of the same design. In which case, we are watching an interstellar community in decline. (Also explains the lack of development in the witchdrive: nobody knows how.)

[Commander McLane]

Perhaps the ooniverse is dominated by a particular species to develop spaceflight early?

That's kind of where I've got to thinking about it so far, but there does remain the question of why all the species are at very similar levels of technology, sharing by the majority of species? A blanket seeding of advancement across the galaxy by a more advanced race?
The Thargoids?

It's not only 'perhaps', and we don't need to employ the Thargoids here. In fact, the majority of worlds in Elite/Oolite are inhabited by Human Colonials. Check it out on the planet lists. So it's simply us spreading all over the galaxy.

For general information on how space was conquered and GalCop developed please feel free to refer to Selezen's excellent website, full of resources, and his ground-breaking timeline of course.

[DaddyHoggy]

@Simon B - having played with some fairly meaty CO2 lasers and some "perfect" reflecting crystals I can assure you that the laser did indeed bounce - right up to the point we think a tiny mote of dust landed on the surface of the crystal and erm, "vaporised" was the word we put in the accident report...

[ZygoUgo]

@Commander Mclane, thanks for the links, had a nose at those before I got tucked into my work. The mention of Thargoids was a joke from the realms of Plan 9 From Outer Space, you know, Insect masters growing us to enslave us and all that

@Simon B, thanks for your interest, re-evaluated it this morning, so;

a) The basics of what I was making up fits into the structure of the time line, it would actually make sense for the first trade/pirate vessels to be made from older land based armors/weaponry, but pre-cursoring the ships ingame. It is only really valuable as added detail to the games history rather than a reason for the core ships to be designed geometrically, the link is now quite loose.
b) Nice idea but the Anti laser armour is an entirely different notion to Chobham as the ceramic is designed specifically to smash and dissipate physical forces, not heat, and at the point in the time line my ideas are relevant it seems lasers are generally not available to the public/s.

Firstly galaxy 1 alone contains over a hundred different intelligent species who have not spread from their home worlds and colonised like we have, meaning that we are indeed the main purveyors of technology rather than just being the most aggressive/corporate minded.
This doesn't mean however that other species were not developing technology, including advanced weaponry/vehicles, maybe even crude lasers (lasers would not be easily available nor declassified, or even probably that effective).
Okay, in 2545 the wormholes are discovered and in 2573 colonisation of the habitable worlds that are unpopulated begins.
That's a 28 year gap in which we keep the spare worlds for our yet-to-become colonies, meaning we are not fully technology sharing at this point, although probably dishing out some tasters to the more co-operative species as sweeteners.
It is also highly likely that the inevitable-high-risk-taker would begin some level of trade whilst the government was still risk assessing wether any species have dangerouse temprements.
This would at first be conducted in home-built/scavenged(ex-government) craft, the government condoning this unsanctioned trade but considerng the massive costs of the project at hand cannot afford to find the resources to police space, so it frowns dissaprovingly from a distance.
Some exceedingly profitable trade routes are established with other species, some of whome have enough technology to cobble together ships of their own.
The traders become more organised/better equipped, black market military equipment/armour raises its ugly head, some skirmishes begin as the profits rise. The first officially recognised armed battle occurs leaving one gypsy trading gang dead, the government outlaws unsolicited trade all together, forcing it further underground. Again they become more organised to the point where they begin to develope into distinct 'companies'/mafia's, structured and smart enough to have secret established bases on asteroids and planets. Their armour and weapons are being made rather than scavenged, vehicles are starting to resemble the core ships, it has been 28 years.
There is a breif flurry of activity by the gypsy mafias to make the most of trade before the colonies are established and the law takes an unhealthy interest, these could be the end of the golden days, however, it arises that instead new routes turn even more profit for the already organised 'companies'.
Incidents of intergang battles reach a shaky peace agreement and a monopoly is established by dividing the galaxy amongst the five 'families'.
Peace and profits ensue, attempts by others to create new trade companies are quickly crushed, but by this point the first generations born into these organisations are coming of age, violent ways settle down into steady jobs.
In 2696 government frowns harder, but is secretly pleased with the supply.
Colony demand out grows the families and public demand requires an easily supplied trade vessel, the Python is born (2700) showing distinct relations in refinement and build to the vessels of the gypsy families, in respect that these were established over 150 years of hard grown experience, or more rather the tenious links to these families if the surfac e is scratched..
Fifteen years later full government backing follows, including the establishment of an organised taxation system and the irritant Heath and Safety Division. No longer able to ignor the huge unofficial profits GalCop ratifies the trade system that is already established, the official records of which show this to be the beginning instead.
As the family monopolies crumble,they dissolve into legal established employement or wander off into the void in small groups, noticeable piracy crawling out of hiding again, this is how it has remained ever since.

So it is the refinement process of Pratt and Whitney (and therefore their influence on others that follow) that holds links to the original trade/gypsy vessels and their development of their own armour technology initially gleaned off land based vessels, not necessarily the qualities of the armour.

Hope you liked that, maybe a good setting for a short story?

Any way that was far too time consuming for a reply in a conversation, must dash

[DaddyHoggy]

@ZU - you're definitely a quality not quantity kinda guy - some splendid, thoughtful postings - I'm happy to see work that enforces, but stays true to the history of the E/Oolite universe. Keep the ideas flowing!

[Simon B]

@Simon B - having played with some fairly meaty CO2 lasers and some "perfect" reflecting crystals I can assure you that the laser did indeed bounce - right up to the point we think a tiny mote of dust landed on the surface of the crystal and erm, "vaporised" was the word we put in the accident report...

:lol:

Sorry, I thought you were talking about shiny metal.
How powerful was the CO2 laser and what was the crystal?

Surely the high reflection coefficient would be short-term, as energy absorbed by the crystal will overheat it at some stage during the experiment.

When you use a pulsed laser capable of punching a hole in 3cm steel plate and a beam diameter in decimeters?

To vaporise steel requires???
You are probably closer to the figures than me...

specific heat of solid (carbon) steel is around 0.5kW/kg/deg, what about molten steel? Also need the latent heats for melting and vaporization ... the starting temp is what, low Ks? 20K? Maybe higher if in sunlight, or just emerged from witchspace?

Melting point's about 3000K, at that rounding, can probably use a starting temp at 200K and what the heck right? Vapour point? At micro-pressure - hmm, good point. If we can liquify the steel, perhaps the pressure differential will blow a hole - come to that, no need to go completely liquid. The physics of damage is annoying and interesting.

OR... if you CO2 laser will happily punch holes is steel, I'll concede.

[JensAyton]

Surely the high reflection coefficient would be short-term, as energy absorbed by the crystal will overheat it at some stage during the experiment.

He did say they were ‘“perfect” reflecting crystals’. Ignoring the scare quotes for the sake of argument, a perfect reflector doesn’t absorb radiated energy by definition, so it wouldn’t overheat.

[DaddyHoggy]

@Simon B- can't tell you what the crystals were (I don't remember their chemical composition anyway and I didn't have a high enough security classification to know how they were grown - just in case any Chinese spies are reading this - no point in kidnapping/grooming me I've been out of that area of work for several years now - sedate life of a University lecturer now)

But, being "perfect" as Ahruman re-iterates meant no surface absorbtion, so no heat transfer - our laser would punch a hole in 3-5mm of steel before it was run at full power (lab wasn't cleared to run at any higher powers from a H&S pov)

Like most Governments/Military doing damage with and protecting from damage with battlefield lasers is an on-going game of leap-frog and highly specialised (I was never a specialist - a sensor modeller on the peripherals only). Fun though, except for the exploding eyeball videos though - they're really not nice...

[JensAyton]

“Do not look into laser with remaining eye.”

[DaddyHoggy]

[Star Gazer]

“Do not look into laser with remaining eye.”

Excellent!!!! I could have done with one of those signs 40 years ago, when I was playing with relatively low powered lasers! We used to keep our argon laser running all night some days to complete experiments by itself... ...one day a foolish security guard wondered just how bright it really was... ...he found out...

...stupid man, he could have ruined our results...