Oolite Bulletins

Recently acquired a copy of the original BBC elite manual and noticed something re typos...

While some typos are suggested by seeming misduplication (eg ergon/ergan laser, A2/AZ Ingram laser) the 750TC of the anaconda isn't one of them. It's mentioned in both the 'obseevers guide' section and also in relation to an illustration (that referenced a python I believe in my beloved spectrum version).

This proves nothing of course but could 750 have been the original intention?

The anaconda was supposed to be the largest known freighter but even with 150 TC that could still have been true. It's so far away from the python's and boa's respective 100 and 125 TC as to seem unlikely.

After plotting out its likely size at 750TC it would look very big but not ridiculous I don't think.



Also the fer de lance... Was it a crew of 12 or a crew of 1-2?
I'm starting to think that the latter makes more sense for a supposed high-tech, self sufficient vessel.

Some headscratching to do before I update.

Redspear wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:29 am

Recently acquired a copy of the original BBC elite manual and noticed something re typos...

While some typos are suggested by seeming misduplication (eg ergon/ergan laser, A2/AZ Ingram laser) the 750TC of the anaconda isn't one of them. It's mentioned in both the 'obseevers guide' section and also in relation to an illustration (that referenced a python I believe in my beloved spectrum version).
...

Also the fer de lance... Was it a crew of 12 or a crew of 1-2?
I'm starting to think that the latter makes more sense for a supposed high-tech, self sufficient vessel.

Some headscratching to do before I update.

But the Cholly Chambermaids....

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 8:18 am

Redspear wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:29 am

Recently acquired a copy of the original BBC elite manual and noticed something re typos...

While some typos are suggested by seeming misduplication (eg ergon/ergan laser, A2/AZ Ingram laser) the 750TC of the anaconda isn't one of them. It's mentioned in both the 'obseevers guide' section and also in relation to an illustration (that referenced a python I believe in my beloved spectrum version).
...

Also the fer de lance... Was it a crew of 12 or a crew of 1-2?
I'm starting to think that the latter makes more sense for a supposed high-tech, self sufficient vessel.

Some headscratching to do before I update.

But the Cholly Chambermaids....

Yes... and I was also forgetting this which worked far too tidily for me to just dismiss.

Redspear wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:11 am

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 8:18 am

Redspear wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:29 am

Recently acquired a copy of the original BBC elite manual and noticed something re typos...

While some typos are suggested by seeming misduplication (eg ergon/ergan laser, A2/AZ Ingram laser) the 750TC of the anaconda isn't one of them. It's mentioned in both the 'obseevers guide' section and also in relation to an illustration (that referenced a python I believe in my beloved spectrum version).
...

Also the fer de lance... Was it a crew of 12 or a crew of 1-2?
I'm starting to think that the latter makes more sense for a supposed high-tech, self sufficient vessel.

Some headscratching to do before I update.

But the Cholly Chambermaids....

Yes... and I was also forgetting this which worked far too tidily for me to just dismiss.

Looking through your considerations (and not getting it all), I'm not sure that I agree.

The FdL is sold to the wealthy, not to the pirates (who steal them from the wealthy). The wealthy have servants, and need room for their entourage. They employ top-rate chauffeurs who do not need docking computers. The FdL will have two or three state rooms/suites for the owner and guests and then room for the staff. That is all part of the reason it is so horrendously expensive. Batrachian bubble-baths come as standard fittings. What the pirates and bounty hunters do with all this is anybody's guess.

The Moray is more of a problem, but as you intimate, the Moray is also aquatic. Maybe there is special aquatic equipment which needs extra staff members to handle it? Or maybe the social needs of frogs etc are such that they need a larger crew? I find the various wiki pages to be thought-inducing (buoyancy requirements, etc.).


By the way, have you seen Stranger's Russian oxp collection? He has a simplified version of phkb's Ship Configuration oxp which seems to marry up with your thinking in your link. Look at his "Strangers Set" oxp (in Oolite OXPs > Game Mechanics). He juggles the Large Cargo Bay against the larger pieces of equipment (eg. the Ore Processor).

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:01 am

Looking through your considerations (and not getting it all), I'm not sure that I agree.

Well, fair enough.

Elite Manual wrote:

A Zorgon Petterson Group (Zee Pee Gee) designed vessel favored by well- heeled bounty hunter and freewheeling business corporations. A sophisticated craft, capable of both limited trading, combat, and leisure function

So is it a combat vessel? Is it a luxury vessel? Is it both? Or might it depend upon how it has been adapted by the owner? After all, if they can afford one of these things then why not refit to taste?

Remember that using my formula, 1 crew equates to 1TC which is actually sufficient space for ten seated passengers; not 10 cabins but 10 seats.

So if you imagine

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:01 am

The FdL will have two or three state rooms/suites for the owner and guests and then room for the staff

then according to my formula, that's fine, there just won't be as much room for (amongst other things) docking computers.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:01 am

What the pirates and bounty hunters do with all this is anybody's guess.

My guess is use the space for shield boosters, docking computers and the like.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:01 am

By the way, have you seen Stranger's Russian oxp collection? He has a simplified version of phkb's Ship Configuration oxp which seems to marry up with your thinking in your link. Look at his "Strangers Set" oxp (in Oolite OXPs > Game Mechanics). He juggles the Large Cargo Bay against the larger pieces of equipment (eg. the Ore Processor).

No, I haven't.

I'm trying to sort all of this out as it overlaps with my own approach of Equipment by Ship Class, which I'd really like to overhaul.

Redspear wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:36 am

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:01 am

Looking through your considerations (and not getting it all), I'm not sure that I agree.

Well, fair enough.

Elite Manual wrote:

A Zorgon Petterson Group (Zee Pee Gee) designed vessel favored by well- heeled bounty hunter and freewheeling business corporations. A sophisticated craft, capable of both limited trading, combat, and leisure function

So is it a combat vessel? Is it a luxury vessel? Is it both? Or might it depend upon how it has been adapted by the owner? After all, if they can afford one of these things then why not refit to taste?

Remember that using my formula, 1 crew equates to 1TC which is actually sufficient space for ten seated passengers; not 10 cabins but 10 seats.

So if you imagine

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:01 am

The FdL will have two or three state rooms/suites for the owner and guests and then room for the staff

then according to my formula, that's fine, there just won't be as much room for (amongst other things) docking computers.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:01 am

What the pirates and bounty hunters do with all this is anybody's guess.

My guess is use the space for shield boosters, docking computers and the like.

But we are talking about a luxury yacht. And you have (here) missed out half of the quote which gives that context: A Zorgon Petterson Group (Zee Pee Gee) designed vessel favored by well-heeled bounty hunter and freewheeling business corporations. A sophisticated craft, capable of both limited trading, combat, and leisure function. The spacious hull is mainly given over to sophisticated weaponry, defences and navigation equipment at the expense of cargo capacity. Cabin accommodation is large and luxurious with extensive Owndirt Inc. recycling facilities, encouraging extended live-in periods (useful whilst pursuing a quarry). Fuel scoop is a standard fitting, ensuring complete self-sufficiency.

I admit that I am more influenced by the Oolite Lore (which implies the "luxury yacht" outlook) than by the Elite Manual description (which focuses heavily on the Bounty Hunter clientele). And which does (to me) a much better job of explaining the massively out-of-line 485,000₢ price tag (over 3x that of the Cobra Mk.3 which is larger and has similar/better specs - the extra FdL equipment counts for a mere 22,620₢).

One way of harmonising the two would be to argue that the luxury yacht was the original market, back before the first Thargoid wars and the escalation in piracy, when the Ooniverse was much safer to travel. And that that market has shrivelled (the billionaires need much more protection than a mere FdL will give) and been replaced by the bounty hunters who are probably the equivalent of pop-stars and have a reputation to keep up (out-Redspearing the Redspears!). And ZPG never lowered their prices.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:52 am

But we are talking about a luxury yacht

Well you are, certainly

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:52 am

And you have (here) missed out half of the quote which gives that context

I tried to summarise. Given that I'd also missed out the following, I thought I was reasonably fair:

...you know where by now wrote:

the real killers star-ride in the sleek, and highly efficient, Fer-de-Lance Lightspeeder, in which they live for months at a time

Highly efficient suggests things shouldn't (or at least needn't) be too palatial.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:52 am

I admit that I am more influenced by the Oolite Lore

And perhaps you'll remember that this oxp is more influenced by primary elite sources.

It's not even supposed to be so accurate as to ascertain how many crew a ship might have or require but rather to approximate what space might be available around that same crew and how much in-game utility it might have. I find it nice when things marry up with 'oolite lore' but where there's a clash (at least for this oxp) then I'm likely going with elite. Otherwise, why bother returning to the original values for the ships?

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:52 am

One way of harmonising the two would be to argue that the luxury yacht was the original market, back before the first Thargoid wars and the escalation in piracy, when the Ooniverse was much safer to travel.

Hey, your game, your imaginings. I would suggest I few things you might want to square about that however:

• wiki wrote:

  The Asp Mark II began life as purely a military machine, the first production model entering service with the Galactic Navy in 2878. The enigmatic craft was unveiled after a lengthy period of secrecy, and immediately went into battle in the first (and most deadly) round of the Thargoid wars

• The fdl was not available until 3100
• My fdl is bigger than yours ... at about the same size as the cobra III, I actually have room for the stuff you're talking about, whether an owner wishes to use it all for that or not.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 11:52 am

I admit that I am more influenced by the Oolite Lore (which implies the "luxury yacht" outlook) than by the Elite Manual description (which focuses heavily on the Bounty Hunter clientele). And which does (to me) a much better job of explaining the massively out-of-line 485,000₢ price tag (over 3x that of the Cobra Mk.3 which is larger and has similar/better specs - the extra FdL equipment counts for a mere 22,620₢).

What I did in Switeck's Shipping OXP was make almost every possible equipment standard on the FdL. It won't cover the cost difference, but at least it makes a tiny bit more sense that way.

A Cobra 3 is much easier to hit from most angles than a FdL, especially head-on or retreating.

Redspear wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:18 am

Very nice...

I couldn't really make it out in Griff's thread but I really like this. Not only dies it look cool but it also looks more fragile, more 'adder-like', than it's predecessor IMHO.

The brown camouflage looks great... and possibly, sort of, kinda makes some sense on a canonical landing craft... maybe

the Adder-class craft has dual atmospheric-spatial capability and is often used by smugglers. Pregg's "wingfolding" system permits landing on planetary surfaces. (https://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Adder_(classic))

Redspear - why not be the very first to add the advertised landing capability to your Adder in this shipset?

Capital idea!
How exactly do I do that?

Do you mean to override equipment/maintenace costs re planetfall oxp?
IIRC the adder already has heat shielding by default as at least a nod in this direction...

Meanwhile I've tried numerous tweaks to the basic formula I'd presented previously for this oxp but each one added complexity for questionable benefit. Given that subtle differences are likely to go unnoticed by the player, I think I'll be sticking to the old one for now.

Thinking some more on planetary landings...

Is it a simple matter to restrict aquiring parcel contracts to planets?

Most docking locations are pretty dull because they are quite restricted in what they can offer that a main station can't.
Part of the problem might be that main stations offer too much.

• • shipyard
  • equipment supplies
  • commodities market
  • haulage contracts
  • parcel contracts

and occasionally more depending upon installed oxps.

Rather than removing any of these from the game, simply reallocating some of them could be interesting.

Equipment suplies and commodities market are both canonical and regularly used regardless of player career, so those should stay I think. Perhaps haulage contracts should too as the bigger ships that best exploit this niche typically lack the speed to make additional stops more entertaining than annoying.

Maybe parcel contracts should be planet based (for collection rather than destination)? Not being cargo hold specific they would suit the smaller, more 'landing craft' like ships. Then the player wouldnt just be landing on the planet for a few extra credits per cannister but rather to engage with a different type of gameplay (less 'samey').

The shipyard (i.e. ship sale market) could either be similarly planet based or much less commonly distributed (how often does the typical player actually use it anyway? Once every 50 jumps? 100?...) What about the canonical shipyards of Lave, Reorte, Lerelance, Onrira, Inines etc. (would need others for the various galactic sectors)? Perhaps they could be the exceptions to some other rule of distribution: corporates only; higher tech requirements; inhabitant type; love of tourists?

Oolite was made with parcel contracts but without planetary landing. IF both had been included then I don't think it would have been any loss to have tied the former to the latter; which would have been made much more interesting by such a coupling.

Interesting observation!

Herewith a grab-bag of musings:

Orbital Stations should offer more, inevitably.

For a start, the economics (and the time/effort/danger/wear & tear involved in planetary landing) dictate that most pilots will not land but merely dock at the orbital station.


One presumes that in a low TL system (eg. Maesin, TL1, Anarchy) the technology to do anything much with a spaceship will be concentrated on the (safe) orbital station.

That is an extreme example, granted.

But at the other extreme, Ceesxe, one presumes again that such technology will be concentrated at the orbital stations. The economics of traversing the gravity well combined with the low gravity for handling massive objects (and the abundance of minerals in space) would seem to prefer this.



Parcels
I'm not convinced about parcels. Maybe some (illegal, better-paying?) might be available downplanet, but one would expect more pilots docking at the orbital station - and that the contracts would be available there.




So what might be expected down planet?


1) Special equipment? Illegal equipment?

I'd always reckoned that the more dodgy stuff in Weapon Laws OXP would be available on the planet surface, rather than the GalCop controlled orbital. The same might well be true for special equipment. With the seeming lack of Spaceship and Spacestation manufacturing in space, it would presumably to have to take place on the planet surface.

(Manufacturing stations: Riredi (G1: Coluber ships), Taranis (G1: Outriders & Navy Frigates), Aquarian Ship-building corp (G3) Oodulldorf (G6: Draven ships) and then Mandotech Shipyard (one in each Galaxy) & Griff Research Limited (in G7) - neither - shown at bottom - look particularly convincing).

And note that Vetitice (G1, home of GASEC, manufacturer of the Vanilla game stations, Globe & Superhub, and the Orisis and Tigershark liners) has nothing visible in space. This of course contradicts what was said above about the economics militating against planet-side fitting of equipment. Perhaps those systems with planetary ship-building could also offer F3 equipment, but not the rest (unless they were illegal shipyards outfitting pirates).


2) Large Black Market (how does one keep a large black market invisible to the authorities on an orbital station? If one can buy off/threaten the GalCop stationmaster, possibly. But otherwise?)


Manufacturing Stations (Mandotech, Griff Research)

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:20 pm

Herewith a grab-bag of musings:

Thanks for your thoughts.

I take your point re black markets. The typical station is big enough for them to be there but perhaps they shouldn't be immediately accessible to the player. Perhaps merely having an offender or even fugitive status is sufficient for such markets to find you.

As for landing restrictions, I know that planetfall makes things quite restrictive but I don't see why it couldn't be done differently...

There was (and perhaps still is) a trend to make new stuff ever more expensive due, in part, to the players ability to stack up enormous ammonts of cash in the late game. A side effect of this was sometimes that gameplay elements were hidden behind in-game paywalls.

In the case of planetfall, it offered new markets almost a risk free journey from the main station - the new gameplay was potential easy money and so it required in-game costs and resulted in more of an interesting diversion / proof of concept rather than an attractive feature. Continual investment required to access safe and potentially lucrative markets without particularly interesting gameplay.

I'm not knocking planetfall, really I'm not, it was one of the oxps I was most excited about but I don't think you could say that all of the possibilities that it opened up were exhausted. The costs were to address the exploit it introduced. My idea would no longer require the exploit.

Cholmondely wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 11:20 pm

I'm not convinced about parcels. Maybe some (illegal, better-paying?) might be available downplanet, but one would expect more pilots docking at the orbital station - and that the contracts would be available there.

Why parcels?

Mainly gameplay rather than realism reasons but that's not to say that the former prohibits the latter.

If GalCop have exclusive contracts with the main planets then maybe it only is the small traders that get to avoid that particular middle-man. GalCop might insist on all of the best deals for mass trade but it likely wouldn't be worth their time chasing down the guy who wants to export low orders of vacuum karate holo-vids. As for plans/documents, I think avoiding GalCop's involvement might be a common desire (similar to your black market suggestion).

Gameplay wise it would make a planetside trip seem different than a station trip; not just in the journey but also in the destination. A differnt gameplay element rather than just different prices.

A potential side effect might be excluding the bigger ships from the 'fun' but they would still have the big commodity contracts and so still have contract trading available to them.

After considering this some more on the BBC manual re the anaconda (above) and getting out the calculator again, I now have a simple (honest, guv) formula that results in the following...

Note that it includes both a 175TC version of the boa 2 as well as the 750TC version of the anaconda! (although they'll both need to equip a large cargo bay to reach their respective limits).



That looks fairly subtle for the most part I think.
Should both be very playable and yet also make a big difference where it counts most (asp, krait, mk 3, thargon).

Barring any last minute rethink there should be a new version released soon and maybe the formula/table as well.