How Does Avoiding the Spacelanes Break Gameplay?

[Disembodied]

The Thargoids could conceivably have advanced long-range scanners, allowing them to dry-gulch ships who venture off-lane. Even with a relatively low (10%? 5%?) chance of being caught, having a couple of Bug warships warp in on you when you're all alone would make people think twice …

That, and the occasional off-lane pirate strongpoint in the shakier systems - plus perhaps the chance of occasional NPCs helping out the player - would provide a good reason to stick to the lanes.

[Cody]

The Thargoids could conceivably have advanced long-range scanners, allowing them to dry-gulch ships who venture off-lane. Even with a relatively low (10%? 5%?) chance of being caught, having a couple of Bug warships warp in on you when you're all alone would make people think twice …

I like it!

[Day]

The Thargoids could conceivably have advanced long-range scanners, allowing them to dry-gulch ships who venture off-lane. Even with a relatively low (10%? 5%?) chance of being caught, having a couple of Bug warships warp in on you when you're all alone would make people think twice …

I like it!

And some systems would be more observed by thargoids than others

The only problem with all this "lanes are safer" reasoning is that they aren't. Any starting Jameson knows that it's safer to skip the lane.

Well yes. I'm interested in what should be, so as to propose (or influence others') oxps.

We could have (gravitic?) radars which results are shared ad-hoc (like wifi) by law-abiding pilots

It's not too far-fetch to imagine the sharing of scanner data between ships. As a result, one could have a very long range scanner created by the network of individual scanners but here is the catch: the presence of a dot on this extended scanner means that there's a ship there, but the absence of a dot doesn't mean there's nothing there because the area might not be covered. Of course, real-life engineers would mark which areas are covered and which are not, but in a game we need some spice.

Hey, non-covered areas (in the shadow of asteroids, for example) would be used by pirates. So distinction between covered and non-covered would detract nothing from the game :p

Other than that, scanner range could be a property of the ship. We know that the energetic cost of such a scanner is proportional to its range (if not to the cube of it if it's not using a sweeping beam technology), so longer range means more power. So very long range requires either a big ship or a specialist ship (like Awacks). But slight variations in scanner ranges could make each ship more unique.

Very interesting. I would say that as this is probably similar to electromagnetism, the power in direct line decreases along the square of the distance.
But we need a resolution of detection less than the typical size of a ship at the max distance, so number of probes in all directions is proportional to the surface of the sphere to cover, so depends on the square of the distance/radius too.
So I guess the power would be proportional to dmax^4.

And more: a traveller would probably be happy with detecting a pirate when they have enough time to hit the injectors. But a military ship needs a near-instant detection. So the power is proportional to the sweep frequency too.

Which means cooperation has a very high value, and big ships and awacs too!

Hmm, maybe a good reason to increase big ship prices XD (this one's a joke).

[spara]

The Thargoids could conceivably have advanced long-range scanners, allowing them to dry-gulch ships who venture off-lane. Even with a relatively low (10%? 5%?) chance of being caught, having a couple of Bug warships warp in on you when you're all alone would make people think twice …

That, and the occasional off-lane pirate strongpoint in the shakier systems - plus perhaps the chance of occasional NPCs helping out the player - would provide a good reason to stick to the lanes.

Now this is a brilliant idea. A solid reason to stay on lane. There could be a special Thargoid type that scans systems for loners, locks on to them, warps in, kills and warps out. "There are wolves out there."

[Astrobe]

The Thargoids could conceivably have advanced long-range scanners, allowing them to dry-gulch ships who venture off-lane. Even with a relatively low (10%? 5%?) chance of being caught, having a couple of Bug warships warp in on you when you're all alone would make people think twice …

That, and the occasional off-lane pirate strongpoint in the shakier systems - plus perhaps the chance of occasional NPCs helping out the player - would provide a good reason to stick to the lanes.

Now this is a brilliant idea. A solid reason to stay on lane. There could be a special Thargoid type that scans systems for loners, locks on to them, warps in, kills and warps out. "There are wolves out there."

It is basically what Deep Space Pirates does. Just hack it so it spawns Thargoids too. Someone mentioned that old/some versions of Elite did spawn ships near the player, like DSP does as well. I believe it's the simplest solution and the way to go.

I have modified my copy of DSP to get rid of the lane considerations. DSP does clever calculations so as to spawn stuff around the lane. I got rid of them and used a criteria based on speed; basically if you're on Torus, no matter where except near stations, there is a 2% chance every second that DSP will spawn something (the exact figures may be different, but you get the idea).

This means in particular that it may spawn something even if you're on the lane (I think I've also rebalanced it so that it spawns vipers, hunters, pirates and traders with equal chances). This is a good thing because sometimes lanes are also a bit too empty. It also works a bit better when you have extra lanes (e.g. extra planets).

[Norby]

spawns vipers, hunters, pirates and traders

Sounds good, probably not only pirates flying out there. How about a Deep Space Convoys OXP?

I can imagine a new approach instead of randomizing ships out of the blue. A populator function could make a long list of starting points placed on all extra (non-wps) lanes between planets, stations, hermits, sun and witchpoint, then add more around the lanes with decreasing odds with distance. Even more could be added using up to system-wide spheres around these objects via randomDirectionAndLength.

The trick is not spawning ships into these when the player is very far, for example over 5x scanner range. We should keep down the number of spawned entities to save CPU from calculating the moves of ships in the opposite side of the solar system. So simulating the game well in a big bubble around the player, while other places and ship types are predetermined right at system creation, just not occupy resources yet.

[Astrobe]

The trick is not spawning ships into these when the player is very far, for example over 5x scanner range. We should keep down the number of spawned entities to save CPU from calculating the moves of ships in the opposite side of the solar system. So simulating the game well in a big bubble around the player, while other places and ship types are predetermined right at system creation, just not occupy resources yet.

DSP has support for that: it "despawns" the pirate groups when they are no longer visible. I believe it was done because DSP keeps a count of the DSP ships the player has killed in order to progressively increase the size of the packs.

The conundrum with the spawning distance is that it is relatively easy for the player - deliberately or not - to avoid the pack, so DSP has to spawn the ships right ahead of the player at a minimal distance, but not too close so the ships don't pop in front of the player. It would probably work better with something like Bullet Drive OXP (steering locked when Torus is active) or Shaky Drive (shaking when Torus is active, so it's less easy to spot ships in the distance). Convoys with the right formation could work too (in any case successfully avoiding an armada of pirates/vipers is part of the game too). But as mentioned previously, we could afford to spawn Thargoids a lot closer as they are supposed to ambush the player using superior jump technology. Actually, make it available to everyone (that is, in-system micro-jumps to other ships) seems interesting.

[Disembodied]

But as mentioned previously, we could afford to spawn Thargoids a lot closer as they are supposed to ambush the player using superior jump technology.

With the right visual effect, this could look very cool … what would be their best strategy? Try to bracket the player, maybe, with 2 ships appearing in front, and one appearing behind and deploying Tharglets straight away?

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I'd be in favour of keeping the ambush technology Thargoid-only, though - it means fewer changes to overall gamplay, and maintains the "otherness" of the Bugs.

[Norby]

it "despawns" the pirate groups when they are no longer visible.

Yes, this keep down the number of entities, but I am talking about a non-player centric solution which is possible if we use the economical way.

it is relatively easy for the player - deliberately or not - to avoid the pack

I think the same result is achievable with my method also: a few tests can tell how much groups should be within a sphere around the player to get similar number of encounters than in DSP. No problem to create this much starting points across the whole system to get the needed density due to most of them stay virtual at any time so never cause too much increase in the existing entities.

On the other hand, if the player deliberately avoid ships what he can detect with eyeballs(tm) then I think he deserves it. To balance this some pirate groups could be in "seeking" mode which mean if a victim (including the player) is in visual range then start approaching it.

I'd be in favour of keeping the ambush technology Thargoid-only, though - it means fewer changes to overall gameplay, and maintains the "otherness" of the Bugs.

Exactly. Maybe the old worlds could be less infected and the galaxy number could multiply them.

[Disembodied]

On the other hand, if the player deliberately avoid ships what he can detect with eyeballs(tm) then I think he deserves it. To balance this some pirate groups could be in "seeking" mode which mean if a victim (including the player) is in visual range then start approaching it.

Yes, good point - this would make off-lane travel properly part of the game, requiring its own skills. Instead of just being an exploit, an observant and skilful player travelling off-lane can be rewarded with a potentially quicker passage to the station, set against the risk of being caught by pirates - with the added slight risk of a seriously nasty Thargoid encounter that might not be avoidable.

How should the off-lane odds work in different systems? I think, generally, that there should be very few pirates, if any, off-lane in Corporate States and Democracies … the player might meet a few deep-space Viper patrols, though, plus other merchants - or at least couriers/smugglers - from time to time. There could be occasional Bounty Hunter squads in some of the ropier systems, too.

[Astrobe]

I think the same result is achievable with my method also

If I understand your idea correctly, we would place "trigger spheres" that would spawn ships if the player enters them.

I think a solution to the spawning distance and avoidance could be to spread the ships within the packs a lot in order to cover more volume; but it depends on the behavior of the AI: if one ship of the pack detects a victim, does it "tell" the others (who might not see it on their scanner) to come there? Based on my experience, it seems to be the case.

An alternative idea (just for the sake of brainstorming) could be to run a simulation of the ships/packs themselves. A problem of DSP is that it is clear that it is player-centric because you know you'll encounter something every N minutes on average (this is particularly obvious on trips to the sun or a secondary planet; less so on the main lane). Player-centrism is fine with me as long as nobody (but the authors and maintainers) realize it.

I'm not sure if a lightweight simulation with JS of traveling ships (that could eventually use a Torus drive) is more efficient than real ships managed in native code by the engine. In this scheme, there's some sort of "encounter detection" with the player which is similar to collision detection BUT it scales linearly with the number of simulated ships/packs IF we don't consider other NPCs (which is a significant approximation - in particular if we are simulating Torus drives). Perhaps we can have a mix of "sloppy" and "accurate" simulation based on the distance to the player?

[spara]

Hmmm. Spawning fauna around the player sure brings back the game play from the original Elite, thus creating systems that are full of traffic where ever you go. I'm not sure this is a satisfactory or Oolitey solution. I feel that the lanes are fine, but they have to be rationalized some how. There should be a sound reason for everyone to stay on lane and the player should be able to note that reason when they decide to leave the supposedly safe lane. Thargoid wolves feel like a good reason to stay on lane or pirates using some kind of proximity sensory systems another one. Game play wise there needs to be something dangerous out there that induces mass locks. Maybe in-system witchjumps should be introduced to rationalize pirates materializing around the player (or any npc that) ventures too far from the safe lanes.

[Astrobe]

And at a same time, we are fighting with the problem that there's a thin line between "exciting" and "annoying". Right in this thread someone expressed his opinion that he doesn't like fights that much, and I remember someone like RedSpear being annoyed by masslocks.

"Witchjump on you" looks like a relatively easy solution to a difficult problem (both technically and lore-wise {space is huge yet there's people everywhere etc.}) at the cost of changing the gameplay and the lore a bit (it reminds me of Battlestar Galactica). Plus, we can rent jammers to people who don't like surprise parties (disclaimer: doesn't work with Thargoids though?). Or maybe the jump could be anchored to a probe that players have to destroy before it communicates their coordinates to the pack (a surefire method being to throw a missile at it).

[ffutures]

Maybe the reason to stay in lane could be related to the torus drive - you can jump without any problems on the direct route, if you go too far off it you have to draw on your power supply, leaving less available for the shields etc.

[Norby]

make off-lane travel properly part of the game, requiring its own skills. Instead of just being an exploit, an observant and skilful player travelling off-lane can be rewarded with a potentially quicker passage to the station, set against the risk of being caught by pirates - with the added slight risk of a seriously nasty Thargoid encounter that might not be avoidable.

Good goals.

very few pirates, if any, off-lane in Corporate States and Democracies … the player might meet a few deep-space Viper patrols, though, plus other merchants - or at least couriers/smugglers - from time to time. There could be occasional Bounty Hunter squads in some of the ropier systems, too.

Yes, the current DSP also use similar rates.

we would place "trigger spheres" that would spawn ships if the player enters them.

The ships are always there in a minimized form, just not shown, like graphic engines prevent rendering objects over a distance. I think store only the datakey, position, orientation, speed and maybe a few other parameters if needed. Exact simulation will be handled by the core within 5x scanner range where ships are shown, outside we can implement a very light one.

We only need a few things to do and much less often, enough if we process a few ships in a frame. The additional drag will be very low and more importantly constant, regardless of the number of virtual ships, just in dense systems a ship will be updated somewhat less often. Virtual ships are always out of visual range so not a problem even if updated only once in a minute. If we have 1200 ships and only 20 FPS then still enough if we update a single ship in a frame (20 FPS * 60 sec = 1200 updates). If we allow 10 ship updates in a frame and the hardware provide 60 FPS then all of this much ships receive an update in every 2 seconds. So I think we can apply this without any measurable load.

if one ship of the pack detects a victim, does it "tell" the others (who might not see it on their scanner) to come there?

Yes, it should. If not then could get some help in js.

lanes are fine, but they have to be rationalized some how.

I imagine thich cylinders around the inner tube of lanes, including paths to additional planets and even to OXP-defined places. DSP use similar way but just around the witchpoint-main planet and main planet-sun lanes. Other places could be less occupied but not surely empty.

In-system witchjumps are not needed here, sounds like an other mechanic addon. Pirates and others are not materializing around the player, they spawned and despawned just outside the visual range so you can not see them appearing, and still stay and move in js memory. The 5x scanner range is enough for all core ships (Adder is visible at about 1x, Anaconda at 4x), but over this we also need a check to do not remove while isVisible to support BigShips.

Thargoids are an exception, would be a nice surprise when during torus travel a wormhole opens and warships sliding out.